2023-11-21 - Joe Rogan Experience ft. David Grusch

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Transcript:

Joe Rogan (00:00:00):

How. Alright man. Hey,

Grusch (00:00:01):

Good,

Joe Rogan (00:00:01):

Good. Thanks for coming here. Appreciate it. Yeah,

Grusch (00:00:04):

Yeah. No, it's a pleasure.

Joe Rogan (00:00:06):

You've Been on a whirlwind sort of tour. I guess we should start from the beginning. Yeah. So first of all, lay out to people what your job was with the military and how this all started for you.

Grusch (00:00:21):

Yeah, yeah. So I was an Intel officer in the Air Force for 14 years, seven active, seven reserve. Then I kind of had a parallel track in the civilian intel world when I became a reservist. And ultimately I got brought back in civil service in a government way at the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency a couple years ago at a senior level. So I was a major in the Air Force and a GSS 15 at NGA, which is a full bird kernel equivalent civilian employee. I'm very humbled that I was able to get that kind of job. But my career mostly, I didn't even really think about this topic. UFOs were not on my radar. I wasn't really a believer, I was agnostic about it most of my career, I did a lot of behind the door special access program, technical type activities. I was kind of a space intelligence expert, a cyber intel expert.

(00:01:22):

And like I said, this was not on my radar at all. I would joke with my buddies, I used to handle the presidential Daily brief for the National connaissance office director in my military capacity as a reservist. And I was well clear to hundreds and hundreds of compartment programs and the joke was, when are we going to get the read on for the crazy shit? And that never happens. And I do remember the day that I really can remember that. I was like, huh, what's with this UFO stuff? I was briefing a senior person at the CCIA into a couple hundred special access programs. So I was at the headquarters at the agency and after the indoctrination I was giving to the senior person, this person who worked with Lou Elizondo previously was like, yeah, Dave, have you ever heard of this guy Lou Elizondo?

(00:02:19):

He's running some UFO program at the Pentagon. We all think he's crazy. And I'm like, I don't know who this guy Lou Elizondo is. And I don't know of any kind of UFO program, so that sounds nuts to me. But lo and behold, and that was early 2017 and lo and behold in December, 2017, that New York Times article came up that named the AATIP program and the AAWSAP program, so Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems application program and the Advance Aerospace Threat Identification Program being the other acronym. And I was like, holy shit. Wait, that's that guy Lou Elizondo that I heard about. You know what I think I have heard of AAWSAP. When I was a lieutenant, I used to read these reports from the Defense Intelligence Agency on black holes and stuff. And I was like, oh, that's stupid. Why is the DIA looking into black holes time warps?

(00:03:14):

It just didn't make any sense to me back in 08-09 when I was lieutenant. And all of a sudden I'm like, well, maybe there's something to this UFO thing. I'm not saying I was a believer either way on the subject, but this was a topic of concern apparently for the Pentagon. And in 2018 I started doing what I call my open source literature review. Let me spin myself up on this topic watching Chris Mellon, Lou Elizondo, Leslie Kean, all these people talk about the subject and then just trying to understand, so what is this with UFOs? Has this been going on for a while? The answer is yes, like Foo fighters sightings of weird stuff in antiquity, et cetera, which we can get into later. And so early 2019 comes along and my boss at the National Reconnaissance Office in my Air Force major capacity forwarded me an email from what became stood up in, I guess it was 2018, which was the unidentified, well, it was Ariel now anomalous phenomena task force UAP task force.

(00:04:20):

So the UAP Task Force director sent my boss an email saying, Hey, we're looking for a rep to the task force. And as any good officer, I was like, well, I'll put it on my performance report. Hey, I was on a task force and that would look good and being well cleared and also a bachelor's degree in physics, master's in intelligence analysis. I'm like, you know what? I'll figure out what the shit is. It's either going to be weather shit, maybe it's an adversarial program, maybe it's like a US program. People are misidentifying on rare occasions, so fuck it, I'll go see where the data takes me. And early 2019 or so, I joined the UAP task force and then I started interviewing pilots, flag officers, general officer, equivalent type navy folks, and they were seeing some really crazy shit. And a event that I talked about previously publicly in a YouTube video on the Yes theory channel.

(00:05:25):

There was this one 30 year senior Navy officer that he was going to work sober, no predisposition for fantasy, all that kind of stuff. I interviewed the individual for a couple hours and he saw this crazy triangle hover over his car going to work at a certain naval facility and it blew his mind. He was serious. The paint on his car turned milky white after the incident. So to me that sounds like ionizing radiation. So ultraviolet, just like how your headlights get all foggy over time if you park your car out in the sun, same phenomenon just happened within 24 hour period. And I'm like, whoa, if this is true. And the oral testimony and crazy radar data that I saw when I was in the task force stuff making turns, it didn't make any sense. Well, holy shit, what is this stuff then?

Joe Rogan (00:06:21):

This anomaly with his paint? Is this documented? Is there photographs or

Grusch (00:06:26):

Yes, I saw photographs. It was documented. Yeah.

Joe Rogan (00:06:29):

And is there a conventional explanation?

Grusch (00:06:34):

I mean, based on what he described, something to rapidly ionize his paint like that within a day. I can't think of anything off the top of my head in terms of some conventional aerospace technology. And this was a certain facility in the continental us. This was not overseas, so it's not like our adversary's flying some spooky thing in US airspace.

Joe Rogan (00:06:58):

So this thing hovered over his car for how long?

Grusch (00:07:02):

A couple minutes while he was traveling at about 60 miles an hour. So it was pacing

Joe Rogan (00:07:08):

How far away from his vehicle?

Grusch (00:07:12):

It was probably a couple hundred feet in altitude. It was less than a thousand feet. Which is also bad because from an airspace perspective, pilots would know this. Anything under a thousand feet? No, unless you get special clearance and you only do that over controlled airspace like a military test ranges, people fly low and that

Joe Rogan (00:07:30):

Kind of thing. So is he on what kind of a highway is he on

Grusch (00:07:34):

A conventional civilian

Joe Rogan (00:07:35):

Highway civilian. So anyone could have been on it? Yes. And it just happened to be this guy. Did he have any other experiences with this thing?

Grusch (00:07:44):

No, this was a once in a lifetime thing. He kept it to himself for a couple years, but then he

Joe Rogan (00:07:54):

In the task force came

Grusch (00:07:55):

Out, what was his name? That individual's still on active duty. Let's call

Joe Rogan (00:07:59):

Him Bob. Did anybody say to him, Hey Bob, what the fuck happened to your car?

Grusch (00:08:04):

That's a good question. I don't remember if people asked him about his car. So he pride in his car. So it actually was probably more upsetting to him personally. What kind

Joe Rogan (00:08:12):

Of car was it?

Grusch (00:08:12):

It was like a Toyota or something. Okay.

Joe Rogan (00:08:14):

Yeah. So all of a sudden his Toyota's fucked. Yeah. Okay. And so did he have to report this? Is this something that

Grusch (00:08:24):

He did not report it to my knowledge to anybody. It wasn't until he reported it to us about five years later that it happened.

Joe Rogan (00:08:32):

So are these kind of experiences something that a lot of these pilots are embarrassed about discussing or have apprehension about discussing? Because they could be ridiculed.

Grusch (00:08:45):

A lot of people that are on flight status, they don't want to be sent to the psych, right? There's a whole aerospace physiology kind of empire in the military that if you're an operator, a guy missile key turner, you're on what they call a personal reliability program. If you're taking Tylenol, you got to report it. If you have a fever, you got to report it in control of nuclear weapons when you're on duty.

Joe Rogan (00:09:10):

Yeah. And so this idea of a being predisposed to fantasy, that's also something that they sort of talk to these people about or try to get a gauge of?

Grusch (00:09:21):

Yeah, yeah. These are people that are very sober minded. I mean, this individual was early in the morning going to work, not under the influence of anything. And that person had a similar clearance as mine? No, T-S-S-E-I. So we've gone through ts, what's that top secret sensitive department of information clearance. And just like myself, I've been through multiple polygraphs in my career. So did this individual, so does he

Joe Rogan (00:09:48):

Have any idea or any theories about why this thing was following him?

Grusch (00:09:53):

No, that's what freaked him out the most. He didn't have any experience in his life like this. It totally blew his mind When he looked out his moon roof and then looked out the side of his car door and saw this 300 foot triangle, it was like pre-dawn sky, but it was darker than the pre-dawn sky. And it had this plasma edges, it was like purpleish glowing edges in these three lights that had these omnidirectional, almost like pull lights, how you can't really tell where the light source is. And it was totally trippy. And that's just one example of many anecdotal with some evidence pilot stories. And that's what made me dig deeper. And I started cultivating my network. Has the government studied this before? This wasn't just AAWSAP and AIP and Blue Book and all this shit in the past. This seems serious. So certainly the government has looked at this and I went to search for that program and that's what I ended up whistle blowing on.

Joe Rogan (00:10:58):

How did you initially discover this program and what was your first encounter with the information?

Grusch (00:11:04):

A very senior individual in the Intel community came to me when I guess I was asking a lot of questions. I'm a very inquisitive guy, and it was like, Hey, I need to introduce you to somebody. He listed that certain person's academic credentials, which were beyond reproach PhD level education clearance resume was insane. I'm like, well, okay, sure, I'll talk to this person. And I ended up meeting that person in a top secret facility and he started to discussing like, Hey, there was a program, I was on it and we were reverse engineering crash material that we've recovered over the decades. And he's like, I'm not joking, and we're telling you because you guys have to report to the Deputy Secretary of Defense in Congress on this matter. And we were actively briefing Secretary Esper, deputy Secretary Norquist, other cabinet level folks. And there's an oversight issue because you're the UAP task force.

(00:12:18):

You should be read into this stuff because why spend the taxpayer's dollars looking at stuff that we already have data on? And that's spooked to me. And that was fall of 2019. And I don't take a guy's word for it. I'm like, you know what? Myself and my trusted colleagues that had a lot of special accesses like me, we cultivated our network and we ultimately interviewed about 40 people or so all the way up to multi star generals, directors of agencies, mid-level guys that literally touched it, worked inside of it, all the stuff. They brought Intel reports for me to look at documents and a lot of that I could cross verify with other oral sources that my high level colleagues or I talked to. And it checked out, especially when I had enough information on, and I know who specifically to ask, like, Hey, well I want red into this.

(00:13:26):

I'm on the UAP task force. And we went to those, I'll call 'em gatekeepers for the lack of a better term. And they basically said, fuck you to me and my colleagues. So why were these other people willing to discuss this with you? Well, they determined I didn need to know I was already cleared at such a high level handling presidential material and everything. It's like Dave needs to know. And they felt that coming to us. It was a form of a protected disclosure. They felt that they weren't really violating anything because we were the, I'll call it the investigatory body for the Department of Defense and the intelligence community and Congress at the time. And you are allowed to disclose to a government official in an official capacity. And I did that. And of course I protected those people and do know I took those people, a lot of them, and I brought them to the Intelligence Community Inspector General when I filed my complaint.

(00:14:29):

I don't want people to hear it from a secondhand source. People call it hearsay, whatever, though I have some firsthand knowledge. I eventually talk about someday , I'm trying to get it cleared, through security processes so they could hear it and hear the details where the shit is, who's in control of what are the cover programs, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And that's what deemed my complaint credible and urgent in July, 2022, which is, so my complaint yes, was about reprisal two. I filed that separately eventually to the Department of Defense Inspector General. And that's an ongoing investigation, but it was my congressional oversight UAP crash retrieval allegations that was deemed credible and urgent. It was sent to the Director of National Intelligence and then it was sent to the Congressional Intelligence Committees around that time, July of 2022. And I eventually went to Congress in December of 2022. And it's a crazy story why it took so long. It's fucking nuts. But I provided total about 11 and a half to 12 hours of classified testimony to the congressional staffers in their lawyers for both the House and the Senate. And I went full open kimono. I mean, I told them as much as I could within my time slot, if you will.

Joe Rogan (00:15:56):

So this is obviously very compartmentalized where there's only a few people that know about this information and they're not allowed to discuss it with other people. When did this all start? I mean, is this out of Roswell? Is it predate that? When did they first realize that there are things that cannot be explained or can't be explained through conventional means?

Grusch (00:16:22):

Yeah, I mean the program goes back a ways, the precise beginning of it, I can't talk about, but I did security stuff. But I did talk about publicly the 1933 retrieval. And I did that tactically, and I ran that through the security approval office because I wanted to show that this is much older and it's international. It's not like a US thing. I mean this stuff is landing or crashing around the world and unexpected countries have had this happen. And that's why I picked that. I thought that was a interesting case. And then of course, the Pope Pius the 12th and the Vatican were involved back channeling it through the OSS, which became the CIA later to FDR. And that's how the US knew something weird happened in Italy during, well, right before World War ii, but

Joe Rogan (00:17:13):

So this was 33 was the first documented.

Grusch (00:17:19):

That is the earliest one I can talk about. Yeah,

Joe Rogan (00:17:22):

This something that predates that

Grusch (00:17:25):

You could infer, that

Joe Rogan (00:17:26):

You could infer that. Yeah. So this 33 1 you said was in Italy?

Grusch (00:17:30):

Yeah, magenta. So it's, I'm bad at geography. I think that's like a Lombardi region. It's like northern northwest Italy.

Joe Rogan (00:17:38):

And what's the story behind it?

Grusch (00:17:40):

So basically it looked like it crashed, right? The original shape most likely was like a lenticular disc like crafts with two dinner plates where what does

Joe Rogan (00:17:53):

Lenticular

Grusch (00:17:53):

Mean? So two dinner plates smushed together, right? The hump. And there's a bubble on top of the

Joe Rogan (00:17:59):

Classic,

Grusch (00:18:00):

Classic saucer like that that, but it looks like when it hits, the edges broke off. So it became this bell or acorn shaped thing, and there was nothing in it. It was just an artifact. There was no biological remnants, if you will. So it's so funny because the Italians were so confused, they actually called up the Germans and they were like, is this one of you? What the hell? Just crashed in northern Italy, Mussolini. And this is all publicly available information because some Italian researchers found all these original documents that some people were sitting on for years in Italy. They put a gag order on the press, et cetera. And yeah, Mussolini asked the Germans to come down, and of course the Germans came down and they were like, that is not ours, but let's look at it together. So that's kind of perhaps a tertiary reason. The kind of axis powers got together. I'm not saying that's the reason, but I think the Italians and the Germans were so intrigued with what they found from an artifact perspective. There was at least some scientific and military collaboration during the war. The details of which I'm not sure of, but I know people that know that specific event that are currently still intel officers within this program in detail.

Joe Rogan (00:19:27):

So was there witnesses to the crash or some sort of an understanding that something had crash landed and then they discovered

Grusch (00:19:34):

It? Yeah, I forget the precise discovery. I dunno if it was local police officers or local farmers found it in the field, something like that. I don't want to misspeak. I assume some of the Italian researchers might have some fact witnesses that can orally say, oh yeah, my great-grandfather found it or something like that. But I don't remember talking. What

Joe Rogan (00:19:55):

Was the scale of this vehicle?

Grusch (00:19:58):

It was probably like 20 feet by 10 feet, something like that. Not super huge, but kind of big. Do

Joe Rogan (00:20:04):

They think that this was a drone? Do they think that this was occupied?

Grusch (00:20:08):

There was nothing in it. So if it was piloted, if you will, by some sentt, I mean your guess is as good as mine.

Joe Rogan (00:20:19):

So what happened to that vehicle?

Grusch (00:20:23):

So we knew where it was being stored at a particular location after the crash, and then the military came in and we grabbed it towards the end of the war, 19 44, 19 45. Because like I said, Pope Pius the 12th already. Lets FDR know. Why

Joe Rogan (00:20:42):

Did the Pope get involved

Grusch (00:20:44):

In Italy? Well, interestingly enough, there's a whole history of human intelligence prior to World War II and old money, the Vatican, the Italian mob, the old country boys did a lot of informal intelligence collection for the us and there's probably some books you can read on it, but it's really interesting. Human intelligence collection wasn't really formalized until the Office of Strategic Services, the OSS, which became the CIA in 1947. You had Paul Mellon and all these other affluent guys of all these old money families that basically created the CIA. So that's probably the reason why.

Joe Rogan (00:21:28):

So this thing that was recovered, this was the first documented one that the United States had access to.

Grusch (00:21:38):

I can't get into if it was the first or not, but it was an early one. Very

Joe Rogan (00:21:42):

Early. Yeah. So it's almost a hundred years ago. And so they take this thing and then they bring it where,

Grusch (00:21:49):

Yeah, I can't get into those details now.

Joe Rogan (00:21:51):

Can't get into that. No. Okay, so they bring it somewhere in the United States and was the attempt to try to back engineer this thing was the attempt to try to understand what it was?

Grusch (00:22:03):

Yeah, I mean, first of it, obviously it's understanding the situation. What do we have our hands on? And like I've said in some other videos and stuff that we took the Manhattan Project secrecy and overlayed it on this issue because that secrecy worked well for atomic bomb developments and whatnots and certainly this whole program in a nutshell, if I were to summarize the 90 plus years of history, it is a reverse engineering program to garner some kind of insight. And of course not a lot of the things that we've learned from it are directly ripped off the technology we found, but it has inspired other innovations that made its way into other US classified programs over the year for national defense reasons. And it's a myriad of different things.

Joe Rogan (00:22:54):

The UFO folklore is that this is where fiber optics were discovered first.

Grusch (00:23:00):

Yeah. I'm not going to break the seal on anything we've discovered or anything like that. And yeah, it's a place I can't go

Joe Rogan (00:23:07):

To. How limited are you in what you can discuss and what you can't discuss and why do they let you discuss any of this?

Grusch (00:23:13):

Yeah, so anything sensitive that I want to say as it relates to US government activity, whether it be intelligence stuff, military stuff, et cetera. I have to submit it through what they call dosser, DOD, office of Pre-publication and security review. That is something anybody who's been an intel officer, anybody with a clearance has to submit that kind of stuff. Now, obviously if you're writing a book about gardening, you don't have to, but if you're going to talk about anything military and intelligence related, you have to submit. So it's kind of a catch 22 for this office. They're only looking at it from a security perspective. They're not vouching for it or anything like that. And that's like any author, they could write a book about Navy Seals and they're not vouching for the story. They're vouching that you didn't say any nasty code words. You didn't burn a specific ongoing classified program.

(00:24:04):

And for them, I mean I'm not in their OODA loop, but certainly it's a catch 22 for them where if they want to redact and they propose a redaction, they're like, Hey Dave, you can't say these sentences. You can rewrite it and resubmit. We can't necessarily tell you what agency said to redact it, but you're not allowed to say this. They would be basically self certifying. There's there. So in my opinion, probably the policy is like if it has to deal with the subject, we're not saying anything. We're not proposing any redactions. As long as he's not burning a conventional program, we kind of have to allow him to exercise his first amendment rights. So I think it's like a catch 22 for that office is kind of the long or the short of the long answer. So

Joe Rogan (00:24:54):

This is essentially one of the very early ones, 1933, how many crash retrieval incidents have there been?

Grusch (00:25:04):

It is double digit. The specific numbers I do know, however, I can't discuss that and I know it sounds like, oh, I am being coy or whatever, but this show, any other interviews I do, right, foreign intelligence services are watching and it's like I'm not here to help Russia and China calibrate their intelligence collection. Like, oh, Dave said it's this number, we missed a couple shit, let's put it out for the K-G-B-S-V-R and GRU are now going to hit the streets to try to figure out which ones they miss. So I'm here to protect national security and I'm just trying to put all the general topics out there for public conversation to hold our government accountable really because here as a fact witness, we have a constitutional oversight issue because this program has not been reported to Congress in the appropriate way. And I can get into a senator I talked to that has died recently, so I can explain to you why I'm so sure besides what I read, which we can get into what Intel reports I read, I did get some stuff cleared.

(00:26:21):

So during my investigation I'm like, you know what? I need to talk to somebody at the highest levels and this will give you an idea of the kind of people we talked to. And this is the only one I'm going to talk about using their name because they died two years ago. So in spring 2021, I actually flew with a couple colleagues of mine to Las Vegas and I met with Senator Harry Reid about nine months before he died. And of course he's a private citizen now and I wanted to brief him on the topic and I wanted to get his kind of thought leadership on it. He was a gang of eight member, which is the top most cleared senators in congressman. He was the majority leader for God's sakes of the Senate. And I knew he helped sponsor the AAWSAP program that I mentioned and where they looked at Skin Walker Ranch and some other things.

(00:27:13):

And I wanted to understand what does Harry Reid actually know? Why did he give 21 million to DIA and Bigelow Aerospace for this? So I'm sitting there in Harry Reid's living room right next to him with some other witnesses that were there with me. And he straight up says, he's like, yeah, I knew we had UFO material. I was denied access for decades. I tried to get access. And then he explained some of his efforts during AAWSAP and I was like, holy shit. Did the former majority leader just say that? He just confirmed this to me as well? I was already talking to these amazing high level people, but I have Harry Reid literally saying, yes, we have material. And he knew it was non-human. Did Harry Reid have personal experience with this? I don't know if he's had any personal stuff in his personal life. I mean, did he see it?

(00:28:11):

Did he witness in terms of seeing the material himself? He said he was denied access for years or decades was his term. And he actually told me on behalf of me, so he had a weekly call with President Joe Biden at the time, and he straight up said to me he was going to talk to President Biden about this issue literally. And then what he was telling me about AAWSAP, I was like, holy shit, I have 20 other people that told me this dude. So the real history, what fucking AAWSAP was, because I think there's a lot of people out there that think they were looking at ghosts, skin Walker Ranch. Yes, they went to the ranch as a secondary and tertiary objective. But the real reason, there's a document that came out a couple years ago through FOIA from the Defense Intelligence Agency. There was this special access program request that Harry Reid, you might've seen this I think like George Knapp and company have reported on this, that he sent to the Deputy Secretary of Defense, William Lin.

(00:29:24):

And it was asking for one of the most serious SAPs you can ask for what they call a bigoted waived special access program. So waived means it's limited congressional reporting that is a class of special access programs and bigoted means it's like by name. And it was like you could read the FOIA document, it was like Harry Reid, James inh, Lou Elizondo, et cetera. And I'm like, why are you asking for the most serious SAP to be created for a program that ostensibly is looking at skin walker ranch and stuff? And it doesn't make any sense. So what really happened there, and Harry Reid, God bless his soul, made this disclosure a couple weeks after we met in the New Yorker, and you can look this up, I think it was like a May, 2021 New Yorker story where he says, I knew for decades and he made this disclosure, not me.

(00:30:20):

So I'm going to say the name of the contractor. Harry Reid said this, we knew that Lockheed Martin had this material for decades. I tried to get access and I was denied. And specifically with the Lockheed Martin stuff he was talking about during the AAWSAP program and for the people who are on this program, I submitted this shit to DOPSR, got this cleared. So don't freak out, but I'm telling the truth here. So Lockheed Martin wanted to divest itself from this material at a specific facility that's known to me that I provided to the Inspector General, like street address, all that shit. And the idea was if they made a catch a security catcher's mitt for this shit most serious set possible, the contractor and the other government customer, which was the central intelligence agency for that specific Lockheed material, and it was shit that they recovered from the fifties and stuff and it was like bits and pieces of hall structure, shit like that.

(00:31:22):

And so they were going to tech transfer its, and the 21 or 22 million was actually for Bigelow Aerospace to build out facilities in Las Vegas and material analysis equipment. And I saw the staff meeting slides, I saw the paperwork, there's a paperwork trail I've seen on this shit. And I talked to the people involved in this program and even Jim Lacatski who ran the program who's retired, DIA officer PhD in engineering even made this disclosure in his book Skin Walkers at the Pentagon, page 1 52 to 1 53. And he also made a disclosure a couple of weeks ago, I think it was on Weaponized podcast with Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp where he's like, yeah, we had a whole craft and we broke into the hall and we gained access. And he ran that through the same security process as I did. And so Jim Lacatski who ran this program is also going on the record that he's personally aware of intact vehicles and everything. So they gained access.

Joe Rogan (00:32:33):

What does that mean? And by what method did they gain access the way he wrote it in his book, I can infer it sounded forcible.

Grusch (00:32:41):

So through some kind of means, I dunno if it was like CO2 laser or something, I don't actually know how they gained access, but imagine it was not permissive access. They broke into the damn thing.

Joe Rogan (00:32:54):

So This thing is essentially sealed and it's some sort of a what was the shape of this thing?

Grusch (00:33:03):

Loki didn't disclose the shape on this particular vehicle as far as I would recollec

Joe Rogan (00:33:07):

About the dimensions.

Grusch (00:33:09):

I don't believe he did in his book, but I think it's like chapter 11 in his new book or something. I glanced at it, but he did make that disclosure on video as well. And I do encourage both the AARO office, which is the DODs UAP task force successor and Congress to ask Dr. James Latsky to come in for classified testimony because the disclosure in his one book that he wrote with Colin Kelleher, George Knapp, and in the second book, well the guy saying he has close personal knowledge, he needs to go to Congress. So I don't know James Lacatski, but I do encourage him to be a fact witness. But going back to that transfer with Lockheed, long story short, can't get in all the nuanced details, but basically the CIA said, fuck you to DIA and Lockheed and it was totally killed. So Harry Reid's request to get the material transferred to that program was totally killed because of bureaucracy and kind of fiefdom stuff.

(00:34:12):

So they used that money and then they wrote those defense intelligence reference documents. The DIRDs is a lot of people who's familiar with listening will know about. And then they did look at Skin Walker Ranch because they thought that studying the more woowoo phenomenon aspects of this. And I've never been to the ranch, so I've never experienced the ranch for myself. But obviously I think we both know a bunch of people that have been to the ranch and have seen some trippy stuff or at least alleged that they thought that they would be able to gain currency with the program in this case, CIA to unlock the key for the Lockheed Martin stuff, which actually I'll tell you right now, it's so weird to say that, but I ran that shit through security. To me it's like an out-of-body experience to talk about that kind of detailed sensitivity, stuff like that.

(00:35:10):

But basically they studied the ranch to gain favor to be like, Hey, look at all this stuff. We're figuring out this paranormal stuff that's somehow connected to the phenomenon on the ranch, but ultimately they never gained favor with the government customer. And then the program kind of died a slow death because of a lot of politics in the Pentagon. So that's kind of the long but short of it with the AAWSAP program that I wanted to make sure the public knew it's not what you think it was. There was some other stuff behind the scenes that I wanted to speak truth to power on.

Joe Rogan (00:35:43):

So this particular vehicle that they had recovered from the 1950s, what was the source of it? Where did they find it,

Grusch (00:35:53):

Those details? I did not get cleared.

Joe Rogan (00:35:57):

Okay. Yeah. So they have in possession this thing, they gain access to this thing and what do they report once they've gained access to it?

Grusch (00:36:06):

Oh, those details. I do not know. That's probably a question for Dr. Lacatski. I presume he knows those details. I don't know.

Joe Rogan (00:36:14):

So this thing is housed somewhere.

Grusch (00:36:19):

It is, yes.

Joe Rogan (00:36:20):

Currently

Grusch (00:36:22):

It may still be in the same location that I know about. Yes.

Joe Rogan (00:36:25):

And how many people have access to this and how did they prevent this information from being released?

Grusch (00:36:34):

I mean it goes back to the compartmentation and the ecosystem of secrecy in this community. Only a limited amount of people, at least at the time on Lockheed Martin's side and Lockheed Martin was complaining basically like look. The secrecy is ridiculous. We can't even bring the right engineers. Imagine you're like a hot engineer, hot engineer, hot shot engineer. It might be hot too, I don't know, but that you're fresh out of grad school. Maybe you're like the best PhD electrical engineer. You want to do cool shit. You want to publish an IEE, you want to climb the ladder corporately and that kind of thing. A Lockheed Martin executive comes to you. Yeah, dude, I can reach into something really crazy, but you're never going to publish papers on it. You're never going to be able to tell people what you worked on. And it's probably not the most career enhancing, but if you want to work on something cool, but I can't tell you because it's unacknowledged until you sign this piece of paper, non-disclosure agreement. Sorry. But here's the raw deal. And a lot of people are like, fuck you. No. And it's not like Lockheed Martin could broadcast this to universities, come work for us. You'll work on crazy shit. But that is very akin to a lot of other black programs in the government that are out acknowledge in nature. You don't know what you're signing up for until you get read in. And I've been briefed to a lot of that kind of conventional stuff in my career.

Joe Rogan (00:38:11):

So that's one of the problems that Bob Lazar and I'd love to get your take on Bob Lazar. One of the things that he talked about was that science can't really operate in a vacuum when you separate the metallurgists from the propulsions experts, from the biological experts, and they're not allowed to communicate with each other and they're not allowed to bring in other experts to have different

Grusch (00:38:34):

Well, was the frustration that I had some friends that I've known my entire career almost 14 years, I literally know them personally. I had a relationship with them, but they ended up spilling the beans where, look, we're on the program. I'm an engineer for X, Y, and Z. We can't even crosstalk across the cubicles for god's sakes. I'm looking at material X, doing some X-ray diffraction testing on it, which is shooting a stream of electrons and seeing how it bends and looking at the atomic arrangements. I can't even crosstalk that with another aspect of the program. This is ridiculous. And that's kind of their frustration. Yeah, I knew you were probably going to ask me about Bob. I know, I figured as much. 

Joe Rogan (00:39:24):

Why did they do that though? If everybody was already sworn to secrecy? Everybody already has NDAs. It seems the most effective way of reverse engineering or at least gaining an understanding of how these things are structured.

Grusch (00:39:34):

Well, that's exactly how Manhattan was, right? People working on the fuses for the bomb didn't necessarily know it was going to a nuclear weapon. And I've seen this kind of compartmentation is of two secrecy in other programs, and it is debilitating for progress. And honestly, as a former fiduciary of the taxpayer dollars, it's not the best modus hor operandus to do it that way. And very few people kind of had that top down, could look across the silos and see what was going on. It just became very dysfunctional. And they were afraid of people being too cross briefed into the different silos for counter espionage counterintelligence. They were got to remember a bulk of this program is done during the Cold War and we were afraid of Russian spies, Soviet moles. And so we made it ultra locked down, but to the detriment of national security. And that was one of the crazy things that got me that I wanted to whistle blow on. Like, this is so stupid, we should be making more progress on this. Were

Joe Rogan (00:40:37):

There any breaches that you're aware of where foreign agents we were able to gain access to materials or an understanding of what we know?

Grusch (00:40:46):

So I'll tell you about some intel documents I read that kind of obliquely answers that question. So there were sense of human derived foreign intelligence that I read. So I had access to kind of the AAWSAP classified archives, and it was thumbing through everything. And there some other people were bringing me documents to evaluate. And I'll never forget, I had, I'll just say stolen by the US intelligence assessment from a certain foreign adversary discussing the US reverse engineering program. And that was actually another like, what the fuck? And so I had an adversary also confirm this program literally because of exfiltrated intelligence. And so they certainly had a limited knowledge at least fact of that the US had a program like this, a particular adversary. And actually I was like, well, I want more. I know who wrote this or who got it on behalf of the United States government.

(00:41:52):

So I went to that certain agency through the approved and official way, and this is kind of part of the myriad reprisals against me. The agency was like, oh yes, we have what you're looking for, Dave. You're going to need to sign A to something, come visit us to go to the vault and read it, right? Hard copy. But yes, we have what you're looking for. And ultimately, from what I was told by friends in higher places, my request kind of went up the flagpole at that agency and all of a sudden the agency ghosted my boss and I for two months. And then when I really pressed them hard to gain access, I have a need to know I need to evaluate this intelligence for fucking Congress. And they debriefed me from all my accesses over in that other history agency and made up some bogus excuse.

(00:42:52):

I shouldn't have been briefed anything in the first place literally. And basically gave me an administrative middle finger like persona non grata. Don't ever fucking ask us about that shit again. And I am sure the person who made the oops that told me they had what I was looking for, probably got admonished and slapped on the wrist. I never heard from that person again, even though it was somebody I actually used to work on occasion with. So that was also another way I knew there was a lot of smoke and fire because I had stuff like that happen to me

Joe Rogan (00:43:32):

Knowing that our adversaries were aware of this reverse engineering program. Are we aware of their reverse engineering

Grusch (00:43:42):

Programs?

Joe Rogan (00:43:44):

Which countries?

Grusch (00:43:47):

You could probably guess, yeah, the big ones. And it won't be too shocking, but I won't acknowledge what the US may know.

Joe Rogan (00:43:55):

So are we aware of numbers in terms of at least a rough estimate of how many are available to these other? Yeah, how many?

Grusch (00:44:06):

That's super sensitive.

Joe Rogan (00:44:07):

There's more than one.

Grusch (00:44:08):

Yeah, you could read into that. You could read

Joe Rogan (00:44:10):

Into that. And has anyone made any progress?

Grusch (00:44:16):

Yeah, I can't get into if we've made progress, if they've made progress because straight up some national security stuff. But just to be clear, I want the US populace to learn a lot of this, and this is why, another reason why I went public is like I need to call everybody out. I'm not here to admonish the entire government mind you. But there is an element of the US government and its clear defense contractor base that we have a three branch of government oversight issue. Going back to Harry Reid. Harry Reid didn't even get access and I fucking talked to him myself to confirm that. And he said he was going to go talk to Biden because I think there needs to be a disclosure plan. And this goes back to what's currently in legislation right now. That's super fucking important because 90 some odd percent of this should be open for public discovery, public analysis and academia.

(00:45:17):

This should be at very least true nuclear programs such as nuclear physics. You study in university nuclear weapons classified because that makes people in the pink mist that's really sensitive. We don't need everybody to know how to do that. So I think the stuff that is legit weapons related stuff, that's straight up national superiority stuff, reasonably classified that. But these programs, we need a change. And that's why you saw the Schumer amendment, and I think you might've read that on air or something in a previous episode, if I remember correctly, Chuck Schumer and I knew about the amendment a couple months before I went public, and that's kind of another reason why I did what I did. I'm like, fuck, I'm like the only guy that kind of has the opportunity to do this. I know what's in the shoot, so to speak that Chuck Schumer and his staff had with the Schumer Amendment, which is 67 pages of literal we want to disclose. And I'm like, I have to spike the football by going public because I can read the tea leaves on the hill. And I think that they were hesitant to do anything without being able to point to something publicly. And I'm like, I'll be that fucking guy and just send it.

(00:46:38):

And then of course, a month after I went public, I guess I pushed Chuck Schumer over the ledge. And I do know he talked to the White House about the amendment too. It's not like Chuck Schumer's going to propose groundbreaking legislation like that without talking to the National Security Advisor or president. I imagine he did. And so you have the 67 page amendments, right? It's called the UAP Disclosure Act of 2023, known as the Schumer Amendment. Co-sponsors were young Gillibrand Rubio rounds and young and kudos for those senators were stepping up to the plate. They know this is real. I know what meetings that they've had with certain other individuals that are even more credible than myself. And so this act, which is super important, is currently in conference as we speak in Capitol Hill. So the amendment is wrapped in something called the Fiscal Year 2024 National Defense Authorization Act.

(00:47:42):

So that is the act that funds the military basically every year. So it's an amendment within this bill, and the act is really long, but the main meat of it is about halfway through the act. It talks about a presidential panel or agency, which is nine person and a controlled UAP disclosure plan. That's six years in length, conceivably from 2024 to 2030 in this panel. And you can read this, this is public law, anybody can read this. They want a scientist, economists, sociologists, et cetera. It's kind of like who you would want to help craft the plan for the president. And this whole bill was actually built off the JFK records Act, which I know they're like, well, they never released all the records. Well, we put some teeth in the bill, some eminent domains, some other stuff that kind of forced the issue. Now granted, the chief executive, the president has the final say.

(00:48:40):

The panel can't compel the executive to do it, but I hope the president does and I support that. So the Senate already passed it. They're chill with this. This is like we're good to go, but there's pushback in the house right now that is, pardon my language, fucking ridiculous. So they're saying, for one, it's duplicating the DOD AARO's office activities. They're doing good things. They're looking at UAP reports, trying to figure out what's balloons in air trash and what's weird stuff. And of course they are doing an historical review to try to understand the US' history on this too. But the problem is with that agency, it is within the DD and IC not above. So you have an issue reaching into Department of Energy, other cabinet level agencies. So you need a presidential level panel that can declassify stuff reaching other agencies and tell certain secretaries, we're coming in, we want your stuff under presidential authority.

(00:49:46):

So what's happening in the house, from what I'm told from people on the hill that are working the issue right now, you have the chair of the house Intel committee, Mike Turner, who's blocking this from Ohio, Dayton, Ohio area, Wright Pat, weird Wright Pat, meaning Wright Patterson Air Force. Yes. And Mike Rogers, which I'm kind of surprised from Alabama, who's the chair of the House Armed Services Committee. So I have a problem with Mike and Mike right now. So Mike Turner, now remember I went to his committee in December of last year. He wasn't there, but his staff and lawyers were. And of course he on Fox Business after the hearing, doesn't use my names like this whistleblower. He has no idea what he's talking about. I'm like, really? Tell me, Mike, have you ever been an intel officer or served in the military? Oh wait, you've been a mayor.

(00:50:41):

The mayor of Dayton, Ohio. You were voted most corrupt person in Congress a couple years ago and pull up his PAC donors. Who are his biggest donors? Lockheed, Raytheon, Boeing. Okay. And first of all, if you thought that you needed more information or wanted to talk to me personally, why didn't you call me back when I reported to your committee? And furthermore, besides blocking the bill, I'm sure you're familiar with representative Tim Bechet of Alabama and he's been very outspoken on the issue and what we may not agree with everything Tim says about conventional stuff that's here, no there. But he's been a champion on the oversight committee and he was one of the members that I testified in public under oath regarding this. And Mike Turner is looking to fund, according to staffers I've talked to last two weeks, an opposition candidate for Tim's reelection in 2024. So why is Mike Turner going out of his way to destroy the career of a courageous Tennessee representative on the oversight committee? And why are you blocking a bill? And it's not going to cost much couple million a year max for the panel, which is like vaporware and US government speak.

(00:52:02):

If there's nothing to see here, why are Mike Rogers and Mike Turner in the house blocking this bill? That is, in my opinion, the most important legislation in transparency in American history. If there's nothing to see here, if I'm fucking crazy, multi star generals I talked to are crazy, the intel docs that I read are incorrect. They're fucking forgeries or passage material or something like that. Good friends of mine that worked on the program are bullshitting me in some consorted operation against me and my colleagues that it would be totally crazy to even conduct that. I took precautions. Then why don't we just pass this and see what happens And what do you think the answer to that is? Special interests want to keep the genie in the bottle even though the toothpaste is coming out of the tube. And I think it's like a death rattle in this industrial complex that doesn't want change.

(00:52:57):

And I'm not here to be some total adversary. I think there needs to be a truth and reconciliation process on this issue. I'm not here to throw people in jail. I'm not here for big contractors involved to lose money. I think this would be a boon. And I think the leadership in these companies need to think about this, where if we're open with this, you can hire people, you can push the subject into undergraduate and postdoctoral programs of research to study this in an unclassified just like nuclear physics. And this answers a fundamental question for humanity. Are we alone or what happens when we die? Well, I don't know about that, but are we alone? Well, the answer is we're not alone. And I know that with a hundred percent certainty, which as an intel officer, you never say a hundred percent, but all things pointed towards based on the people I talked to like Harry Reid, and I use him as an example, but I talk to the highest of the high people you could possibly talk to catch my drift.

(00:54:08):

So unless all them are lying and they're covering up something else, which I don't even know what it would be at this point because the phenomenon is real. It's been going on for thousands of years. People have been seeing strange things and not everybody's mass hallucinating. So that's kind of my long diatribe about what's happening. What do they think these things are? The people that you talk to. So they specifically the people on the program that handle the material that were in executive level briefings with intel community leaders and other folks over the years, last 20 years or so, they did use the term extraterrestrial ET or whatever.

(00:54:50):

That isn't a possible origin. But the Schumer amendment, if you read it, it specifically uses non-human intelligence, NHI, very deliberately because we want to catch everything. Because what if some of this stuff is not ET and they're going to use that as an escape clause? Well, this stuff that we don't even know if it's extraterrestrial, so this doesn't apply. So that's why we wanted to be as broad as possible. I mean, besides et, I mean a lot of it would be my own personal opinion. I think we have a couple conceivable buckets, and I am using the work of Jacques Valet, other people that have thought deeply on the issue on how the phenomenon has changed since antiquity. It showed itself in a different way. A good example is witches sitting on your chest phenomenon with paralysis and medieval and enlightenment era became this alien abduction phenomenon in the modern area era.

(00:55:55):

Excuse me. And is it the recipient and their analytical overlay cognitively seeing the phenomenon based on a modern interpretation inside outs or is the phenomenon, this is like Jacques Val's book, passport to Magnolia. Magnolia, I can never pronounce it right, 1969, where he talks about the phenomenon seems to masquerade itself as different stuff over the years. But we've seen roughly the same stuff. If you look at the Foo fighters of World War ii, there are declassified Air Force OSI reports from the fifties. People can Google that talk about flying butane tanks with the same measurements, approximately what we saw in the 2004 tic-tac incident, but they called it flying propane or butane tanks in the fifties. So from a morphology or in the Air Force intel, we call it REI visual reconnaissance, they basically look the same. And we can back azimuth that decades, if not hundreds of years in the past wheels of Ezekiel, right?

(00:57:02):

They're seeing these disc type objects. And unless Ezekiel is tripping or this is an allegory or fable in the Bible, let's say the event happens, just like in the Vedic text, you have the battles, the blue people battles in the sky that sound like nuclear and directed energy weapons. What's going on there? I mean, maybe that's a Graham Hancock or Randall Carlson type thing. They know more than I. So there is a real phenomenon that origin undetermined, but it's trippy. And sometimes it presents itself in a non corporeal form too, orbs balls of energy. They don't appear as some kind of bipedal hominid like some people have espoused. So I think that might be call it interdimensional, call it shadow biome crypto. I mean, there's a lot of different theories. What are the primary theories are from another planet or from another dimension? I think those are the primary.

(00:58:07):

I mean, there's certainly origins that we probably can't conceptualize as humans because we're just, our meat is stuck in 3D and we don't understand, and our IQs are only so high. So there might be some origins that we don't understand in terms of interdimensional travel. I mean obviously if you talk to mainstream physicists, they say crossing dimensions physically, it's kind of a trope of sci-fi. And that's why I used an example, and I know some physicists don't like me talking about this theory, but it is a theory. So the holographic principle, which was originally conceived to explain how information is encoded on an event horizon of a black hole, which is a distance away from the singularity of a black hole, where if you cross it, you're fucked because you're going to get rip the shreds or you're not coming back. And that principle talks about how information basically from higher dimensional space can be encoded in lower dimensional space.

(00:59:11):

And the easiest example is us casting a shadow on a sidewalk, three dimensional object, 2D shadow on a sidewalk. If you lived in two-dimensional space flatland, you'd be tripped out. What the fuck am I seeing? But they just don't know that it's really just a person in higher dimensional space. So some of the, I mean obviously we have physical material that's in three-dimensional space that we've recovered, but at least maybe some of the phenomenon is really operating in higher spatial dimensions, but is either being projected or quasi projected into our 3D plus, which is really trippy to think about, but we literally do it on a day-to-day basis, like casting shadows. And that might be some of what we're seeing too. But I mean, I presume we know more. The people I talked to did not espouse. They had full knowledge either. Like I said, the normal colloquialism was to say ET or extraterrestrial. Could

Joe Rogan (01:00:10):

You dumb down this concept of interdimensional?

Grusch (01:00:16):

Yeah,

Joe Rogan (01:00:18):

I know in physics they have theorized that there are multiple dimensions other than those that we can currently detect.

Grusch (01:00:25):

And a lot of that is based off of Laura. This is my bachelor's degree talking. I know there's going to be some physicists who has a PhD's like, okay, if you've fucked that up. But basically from high energy particle collisions and based on the deflection angles and all this stuff, what happens when the particles collide confirms certain theoretical frameworks about extras, spatial dimensions? And I can't speak with any real authority on precisely how that works, but a lot of, whether it be string theory or quantum mechanics are based off of higher spatial dimensions. And so that is a mainstream physics theoretical framework that's not like wacky or loony or anything like that. But that's basically a possibility. But like I said, we don't really have a good theory. If you lived in five D space, for example, it's almost like, remember the ending of the movie Interstellar, right? Yes. Where he is pushing the books, he's in a tesseract, which is like a four to five D structure, but he's trying to interact with 3D space. And of course he leaves that space to come back to his daughter many years later at the end of the ending of the movie. Great movie.

(01:01:45):

So that's a way to conceptualize it in something you may have watched in film. It's kind of like the ending of Interstellar. Oh yeah, yeah. There,

Joe Rogan (01:01:56):

Which is based on what theory.

Grusch (01:02:00):

So the physicist, Kip Thorn was the very famous guy. He was a big black hole and wormhole guy. I think it's Caltech or somewhere in California. KIPP Thorn actually did all the physics equations and everything for Christopher Nolan to make sure that they were conceptualizing and visualizing black holes and wormholes and all that stuff correctly. In the movie we saw the halo around the black hole when they were coming in with the ship and everything. That's actually based off of real physics models that Kip Thorn did the calculations for, which is pretty cool actually, that Christopher Nolan took it to that level.

Joe Rogan (01:02:38):

So this idea that these beings, or whatever you want to call them, exist in some other dimension. Do we have, I mean, I don't know what you can say about this. Do we have an understanding? Do we have any sort of communication with these beings that give us some sort of an understanding or a map of this?

Grusch (01:03:02):

Yeah, the interaction stuff, it's a sensitive area. There were multiple, very senior people that were concerned about talking about that kind of stuff with me. I mean that is certainly as nuts as it sounds, that was a real subject of conversation. Even it sounds like something out of Star Trek first contact, but

Joe Rogan (01:03:21):

It doesn't if you have vehicles.

Grusch (01:03:23):

Yeah, so it's like once you realize the phenomenon's real, then you realize we've recovered artifacts and biologics or dead pilots, if you will. Even though it's kind of creepy to even think about that in your worldview, you don't think they were ever alive sometimes too. I'll leave it at that only because that is something the president and his cabinet needed to disclose this in a controlled manner. Going back to that amendment, I'm not here to push the subject in an improper way, and that sounds like, why don't you just do it Dave? I'm like, there's a lot of secondary and tertiary ramifications. Socioeconomically. Theologically, our relationship geopolitically with our allies and adversaries. This is not rip off the bandaid and it's simple. There's a lot of complex stuff behind the scenes that need to happen and that's why I am laying out all the general stuff that needs to be talked about during the disclosure process.

(01:04:32):

But I should not be the one disclosing and it would be highly inappropriate. I care about the health of the United States and its people and national security for me to do so. I know there's people that are like, oh, why doesn't Dave say X, Y, and Z? It's like, this is serious. This is not like, haha. Lemme tell you a good story. I'm a serious guy. I ruined my fucking career doing this. I was going to make lieutenant colonel in the Air force this winter. I was on track to be a flag officer equivalent civilian in my career. I spent 18 years in uniform. If you count the cadet time, my whole adult life was serving as an intel officer. But I wanted to see, and I'm 36 older millennial, I wanted to see change. So I'm throwing the flag outs and I'm here to hold the government accountable to do the right thing in a manner that is mature and thorough because I don't begin to say that I know everything, all the different ramifications of saying certain things publicly.

(01:05:37):

I don't know all the answers to that and that's why I have to be careful. I don't even know, I'll call it collateral damage effects to use kind of a military term. What may happen if certain things in detail that are revealed that I might not know the ramifications thereof because there's something that I'm not privy to. So this is serious. This is not like a fun situation. This is like humanity changing hopefully in a good way. But this is quite serious and I risked my personal and professional life and I personal life because things have happened to me to be public like this and I swore an oath, but myself and my generation want to see it change. Can you discuss the things that have happened to you personally? Yeah, so a lot of the stuff I have to be purposely vague because there's an open inspector general reprisal investigation on my behalf, and I'm not here to compromise the investigation by tipping off my antibodies that may be watching right now.

(01:06:40):

But when I really started looking into this, I mean they came after me so hard to try to revoke my clearance, ruined my career, kicked me out of my agency and they accused me of everything you could possibly think of with no evidence. For example, at first they wanted to say, oh Dave, you have mental health stuff. You didn't report to us. We're concerned because we think you might have an ongoing mental health issue. I'm like, what are you talking about? I reported that I had PTSD from Afghanistan and my military service several years ago, and I sought help for that. I'm not ashamed of that. I'm high functioning autistic and I didn't know that until my early thirties and how I processed trauma I didn't really understand until many years later. And I sought help for that and they were trying to say that I had some secret mental health problem that I haven't been reporting to.

(01:07:46):

So I had to go through this whole process. Three agencies at the same time investigated me for that, which I don't even know if that's legal. They tried to say that I mishandled, classify all this other stuff. It was insane. Apparently I was under criminal investigation for a couple months and I didn't even know that and nor did they interview me, but they made a finding with no evidence they tried to use against me that I had to spend money to basically litigate and maintain my employment, my clearance, which I did for the record. I maintained my clearance. I resigned with full accesses. I'm just debriefed now, but I maintained my top secret eligibility and I left with my own accord. And of course they ruined one of my boss's careers in another agency. They walked him out of the building and revoked his clearance and terminated him as a show of force after they were going after me.

(01:08:44):

And I feel sorry for that certain individual and they came after coworkers of mine. I can't get into who, when, where, and why to protect their identities and their own process. So that's what happened to me professionally. And then what happened to me personally was very disturbing. So I had to be very vague about this because ongoing investigation, but I think you'll understand what I'm saying is they showed my wife and I, they can touch me at any time two times. And it was very disturbing. It was in conjunction with some other people getting a message like that that are let's say publicly, well-known some that aren't publicly. And of course I immediately reported that to counterintelligence federal law enforcement local to me because it wasn't criminal, but it was like a fuck you to me. And this was right before I fouled my whistleblower complaint.

(01:09:47):

Now I don't know who did this entity, who did X, Y, and Z to my wife and I, identity unknown, but it fucking happens. And I provided that documentation to a couple special agents and I just knew that it was getting serious. And first of all, I'm the kind of person, I'm from Pittsburgh steel town. I don't take shit from people. And I decided, fuck it, I'm going to file an inspector general complaint to protect myself. I'm in fear for my safety. My wife's an Air Force veteran too, and very strong individual. But as a man, you don't want to put your family at risk and did certain other measures which I won't talk about to protect myself physically. And I could not believe that that was happening to me. No kidding. And I knew I needed to do something internally. And then when I saw the writing on the wall earlier this year, and of course I knew about the Schumer amendment like I mentioned earlier, and I knew I'm like, I got to do this from my own protection because me leaving the federal service, I resigned my Air Force Commission.

(01:11:04):

I totally threw that career away to do what I thought was the right and patriotic thing to whistle blow on this. And I swore my oath 18 years ago, and that sounds hokey, but I believe Integrity first service before Self and Excellence, all we do, that's the Air Force motto. And I'm like, this is not going to help me personally love talking to you. I like spreading this message. It's the right and ethical thing to do, but this is a nightmare for me. I don't want to be public. I've served the country in clandestine and covert operations for 14 years. I've done technical intelligence for some of the most high profile takedowns in US history. I shouldn't even be here, but I am because I want to see change. I saw something unethical and I want to make sure I hold that element of the government accountable and it was the right fucking thing to do.

(01:12:02):

And I get kind of emotional about that because my career's been service and sacrifice. And I had two friends of mine die, and I've talked about this publicly before and I am segwaying a little bit, but the suffering of the American Intelligence Officer is something that for their service of their country, and we're not talking about this subject, obviously people don't realize the kind of trauma intel professionals go through. So first of all, I had a friend six months after I got back from Afghanistan, his name is Captain Dave Lyon. There's a park in Peterson Space Force Base named after him.

(01:12:43):

I remember seeing his coffin come off the planes though. So I saw him die. That fucked me up for a number of years and that's what gave me a lot of my problems that I ended up dealing with. But then I had remarried and then my best man, captain Ben Heney, air Force Intelligence Officer, air Force Special Operations Command. I've known him for years. He's my closest friend, best man at my wedding. And then 28 days later, unfortunately, he suffered from depression and it was as his best friend. He didn't even confide in me. I remember chit-chatting him, chit-chatting with him on the phone one day about 28 days after. He was my best man. And he didn't tell me anything was wrong with him. And a few hours later he walked in his backyard and shot himself. And I gave his eulogy at his funeral.

(01:13:39):

And that really, really affected me. And with what Ben experienced, which I can't get into all of the stuff he did obviously, but imagine being the guy that decides that that person is bad fire. The harl fire, that person is now pink mist that they're dead. You just played, God, let's go back to the wife and kids at the end of your shift. A lot of that I did the same kind of thing. I did a lot of stuff overseas involved interrogations and ops that you had to decide if a target is bad enough where you're going to affect their life forever and their family's life forever. And that's the silent suffering of Intel professionals, especially during the global war and terror, which was 21 years or so. And the trauma and the mental health problems that people get from being an intel professional in operational environment. People think like special operators, pilots, et cetera, army, Marines, ground pounders, and they certainly have their own trauma. But it's this weird insidious, am I in a video game? Is this real trauma that intelligence professionals? And I just wanted to highlight that during the show because that was just a near and dear to myself. So people are aware of the service of military intelligence and civilian intelligence professionals that have to make really tough decisions for the country that affect people's lives on the receiving end.

Joe Rogan (01:15:17):

Was there a concern while you're going through all this, that if you didn't come out with this, that we would be stuck in this same sort of loop for a long, long period of time and no one would ever have access to this stuff that they would continue?

Grusch (01:15:33):

And you nailed it on the head is I think my generation wants to change under 40 generation. Their parents went to war, their older brothers went to war. Were fighting two dangerous proxy wars right now, which is extremely

(01:15:50):

Stupid. I don't even know the better way of saying it. Be quite frank, and I can give you my own assessment on that if you want, but we're in this loop. We're not progressing in a healthy way as a civilization. It's becoming more divisive whether you're on the left or the right, people aren't even looking up. All they care about is TikTok. We're creating potentially dangerous artificial intelligence. I even saw that in my government service. And I think humanity's kind of stuck right now and we need to change. And this subject is one of the only unifying, ontologically shocking. But I would think generally unifying topics where if announced by the US and other major powers that have knowledge in a controlled manner that this could change humanity for the better, make us look inside ourselves, become less divisive and care maybe a little less about superficial things. So that's kind of my philosophical motivation to do what I did.

Joe Rogan (01:16:58):

And you're confronted with one of the biggest mysteries in human history, which is are we alone? And it seems like at least some people have the answer to that

Grusch (01:17:09):

A hundred percent. I mean the people I talked to certainly did. And they had close personal knowledge. And the intel reports I read literally indicated that as well I talked about earlier. So it's like this caste system, I call it dudes with SCI, clearances do not have an embargo on reality. So it's a caste system of people in government and outside of government in the industrial complex that run this stuff under little oversight. And I remember some of the people who denied us access, they were like, I don't know what you're talking about, but if I did, why would you have a need to know? And I'm like, well, why did you have a need to know? You're just some multi star general,

Joe Rogan (01:17:55):

Right? You're a human

Grusch (01:17:56):

Being. You're a human being. You're not better than me. I mean, who determines need to know on a humanistic question? It is like basic fact of life. Why are we classifying fact of life at this day and age in 2023? It's insane. And

Joe Rogan (01:18:14):

The answer to that would be national security.

Grusch (01:18:18):

Yeah, it's obtuse national security. So why we classify stuff, it's called executive order 13 526, right? Section 1.4 sections E and F are why we classify science stuff, why we classify nuclear stuff. It's like a one-liner. It's very vague. And are you saying this is, these basic facts should be classified? Are you saying that this fits in this bill? And you notice the Schumer amendment, if anybody reads it awkwardly, calls out the Atomic Energy Act in 1954 and they're basically treating this as nuclear secrets because it gives off nuclear radiation. Because if you look at the ultra vague definition of special nuclear material, which is section 51 of the Atomic Energy Act in 1954, it says anything that gives off a sizable amount of atomic energy, literally that's what it says. Well, what's sizable and what legal gymnastics are you saying this stuff? Which is obviously not a, well, who knows?

(01:19:28):

Maybe it's a nuclear weapon. And you're saying this is a US nuclear secret. You're trans classifying it into a nuclear secret, which I understand maybe at first why they did that. And I'm not admonishing the hard decisions that presidents and other folks did many years ago when this was more of an enigma and we wanted to lock it down, figure it out, and then see what we're going to do. But there's never been a disclosure plan. I always ask that to the super senior people I've talked to, was there a plan, any kind of plan at all? And they're like, no, never. We tried the muddy to waters back in then tried to put it out there and test the populace, but there was never any cogent plan. I mean, people think the government is like this fine oiled machine. They have plans for everything.

(01:20:20):

Well, I guess sort of, but it's not, I mean, look at the war on terrorism. We left Afghanistan, no, general Officer Mattis, Petraeus McChrystal. I call them the failed generals, people loud them, but really themselves in the Obama administration, Bush administration except Trump, whatever. Nobody had a cogent plan for success. And we were fighting people who are much less of an adversary than one of our peers or dear peers. And we couldn't even win that war. Like what the fuck are we doing? But these protracted, endless wars, let's be real. It's good for the industrial complex. And I'm not like admonishing the whole industrial complex. For the record, we need national lethality. We need weapons to kill bad guys because there's evil people in the world. But you've got to control some of it though. Well,

Joe Rogan (01:21:14):

That's a part of the problem with people that have secrets. It's like once you have secrets and a part of your identity is the holder of those secrets, and part of the culture of these industries is that they are the ones that have the access to that.

Grusch (01:21:32):

And I saw that in conventional really black programs I was a part of in my career. It was almost like you got that secret society vibe where it's like if you're a career government servant, your salary's not that great, but knowledge is your currency and what makes you special? What rice bull do you control? And I remember getting read into some stuff that it was like the president and very limited number of people getting read into, and I was one of them. I was operating a certain thing for a certain op and Oh, you're part of the club. Only 30 people are cleared or whatever. And I'm like, I don't get off on this. It's so weird. But these lifers, and I hate to talk so matter of fact about it, but it's kind of disgusting to me because it's weird. It's just a weird gnostic, cultish thing. And I live that community for 14 years of my career and

Joe Rogan (01:22:33):

People really do enjoy having information that other people don't have access

Grusch (01:22:36):

To. I was like, I got a secret and that's why I whistle blowed. So I know this shit's real. I know we're not alone. We have stuff. No shit. Am I going to sit on my ass for 30, 40 years? I'm an old man. I look back, ah, I had that secret. I knew about it, but I didn't do anything. I didn't. So I couldn't just keep that secret because I thought it was just perverse and wrong that the people don't even at least get to know the basics. It's insane

Joe Rogan (01:23:08):

When it comes to these, I'm going to bring it back to these actual entities. Do we know or we have an understanding of how many of them we're talking about and the variety of them.

Grusch (01:23:21):

There is a variety and we have a certain number of different things, but the total numbers of what's interacting with us on earth, I mean nobody knows that,

Joe Rogan (01:23:33):

But there's an understanding of some that they do believe are interacting with us. And there's a variety in terms of there's variables.

Grusch (01:23:40):

I talked to people who are familiar with the biological analysis and everything. So we have some idea, not a complete picture, because it's like you are looking at it, it's like, well, I don't even understand the physiology at all. It's like, what the heck? It's way different. So we have at least there a description

Joe Rogan (01:24:00):

Of this physiology.

Grusch (01:24:02):

Yeah, no, I was in the room when I got to be careful. I don't was in Washington DC with a very number of senior people that work for members of Congress. Put it that way when I was still in government and I brought the people who worked on that stuff to the hill. I mean, this is why the members were so confident to put out the Schumer amendment and stuff. And I was like, please explain. And they went into all those details and stuff. And I remember some of the professional staff members were like, whoa, they were in Glock, right? I mean, a total world bubble got burst right there for a lot of people. And so we have some idea. It's not a complete picture. I mean it's just like, but you're not even bringing in the right people. I think about my friend and colleague, Dr. Gary Nolan, which I started the sole foundation nonprofit with. I mean, he's like Nobel level biologist, virologists. He's the guy that you would want on it, but he's not on it. So I think we can make a lot of progress in our understanding. Once again, if this is more broadly studied in an open environment.

Joe Rogan (01:25:30):

You aware of the Nixon Jackie Gleason story?

Grusch (01:25:33):

Vaguely. I stayed away from ufology because I had these contemporary people that were inside. I could check all their credentials, where they worked, et cetera. But I am vaguely familiar where, what was it like Nixon brought Jackie Gleason to some facility and showed some stuff or something like that? Yeah,

Joe Rogan (01:25:54):

Supposedly that's the story. And it's very hard to determine the origin of the story or whether or not it's real. There's a story about one article that was supposedly, was it Vanity Fair? Something like that. And you can't find the story, but Jackie Gleason, by all accounts was obsessed with UFOs and even built a home in upstate New York that looked like a flying saucer. Oh, really? Yeah. That's cool. This is the house. He had this house constructed supposedly after he had this meeting with Nixon. So Nixon supposedly they were drinking Jackie Gleason and Nixon are tying one on and Nixon's like, you want to see some shit? And they fly to wherever this base is and he shows 'em these frozen biological entities and this retrieved vehicle. And then Jackie Gleason becomes a fanatic, obviously.

Grusch (01:26:53):

That's crazy. Yeah. I mean, not crazy, but that's interesting that a president would do that to an Uncleared celebrity friend of his like, oh, let me just show you the most sensitive shit our country has. I don't know, it's kind of crazy to me. People

Joe Rogan (01:27:06):

Are obsessed with celebrity. There's even world leaders, kings and queens. They've always been obsessed with famous people. And Jackie Gleason at the time was incredibly famous and also beloved, right? Yeah. So this is my pal and I'm drunk. You want to see some shit? I get it.

Grusch (01:27:28):

I want to hang out with Nixon if that's how he was like, man. Well, I bet seventies was probably wild. I

Joe Rogan (01:27:32):

Bet he was like that in a lot of ways. I mean, hunter s Thompson famously recalled his, there's the two of them meeting together famously recalled sitting in the backseat of a limo with Nixon talking about football. And he was like, God, if I didn't think he was a piece of shit, I actually kind of like him. Oh, that's

Grusch (01:27:50):

Funny. We're just

Joe Rogan (01:27:51):

Talking football. Look, nobody in that job. Nobody as a president is going to be loved by everyone. And I'm sure Nixon has positive qualities and if Jackie Gleason liked him, I'm a giant Jackie Gleason fan. He's probably fun to hang out with. And if you're drunk and you're the president, and also we're talking about the 1970s, right? Yeah. So this is a different world. Even if you tell anybody who the fuck's going to believe you, you can't get on TikTok. Whatcha going to do? How are you going to get this information out?

Grusch (01:28:24):

Oh, exactly. And that's kind of how, in my personal opinion, how the program was protected. Right? Forever make it crazy. So if anybody leaks anything or has an unauthorized disclosure, people are going to think you're fucking nuts. Of

Joe Rogan (01:28:39):

Course. But there are actual reports that we have. Biological remains.

Grusch (01:28:51):

Yes. Oh, yes. Yes.

Joe Rogan (01:28:52):

How many?

Grusch (01:28:55):

It's up there as well. Just like with the retrival. And they

Joe Rogan (01:28:58):

Vary. There's different kinds. Do we have an understanding? You don't have to answer where they came from.

Grusch (01:29:08):

Nobody I talked to espoused any specific origin to me. We may know that, but I'm not aware of anything. So I don't know.

Joe Rogan (01:29:17):

Are there reports of some kind of interaction with these things where they're giving information or discussing the problems of humanity and possible solutions or explaining why they're here.

Grusch (01:29:33):

Interactions was a sensitive subject that my interview subjects did not want to get into. I suppose that there's probably detailed documentation of those interactions that goes into a lot of the stuff you're asking. I truly don't even know the answer to a lot of that.

Joe Rogan (01:29:51):

But is there discussions amongst these people that there have been these sort of meetings,

Grusch (01:29:58):

There was water cooler talk with some people I talked to on the program. I love water cooler talk. Yeah. They're like, Hey bro, guess what I overheard in some weird meeting. But the problem with that is it's like secondary information and I'm so anal retentive unless that person told me I had close personal, I touched it, whatever. Cool. Well, you're coming to the Inspector general or I'm going to at least give them your name, what you told me. And then obviously I did that. So those people who physically were there were on the program. Did the thing I brought to the inspector general.

Joe Rogan (01:30:34):

Are there discussions of interactions with live beings?

Grusch (01:30:40):

There was some water cooler talk about that kind of thing. That's it. But I don't even want to get into it because there were some details provided to me, but it's like it's secondary. And I don't know if that's the telephone game, and I don't know if it was hyperbolized in any way in the break room, so to speak. So I'm so anal about making sure what I say is accurate. I don't know.

Joe Rogan (01:31:05):

Do we have an understanding? I mean, if there have been these discussions, do we have an understanding of when they first took place?

Grusch (01:31:14):

Yeah, some specific events were mentioned to me and I provided that information in a classified setting.

Joe Rogan (01:31:21):

And how far back did they go?

Grusch (01:31:23):

Pretty far back. It's pretty weird.

Joe Rogan (01:31:25):

Yeah. Well, one of the stories from Roswell that's fascinating to me is that Eisenhower had the wreckage flown to Wright Patterson Air Force Base in two separate jets in case one of them crashed.

Grusch (01:31:39):

There has been some public testimony, general dubose. There were some old timers that at least did some videos in the nineties. I'm brigadier General Exxon. Here's what I heard. Whatever. I mean, that's out there in the open. Yeah.

Joe Rogan (01:32:00):

Yeah. And there was always that discussion of Hanger 18, right? Have you ever heard Hanger 18?

Grusch (01:32:06):

There's a lot of hangers for whatever reason. I think it was maybe a movie. Was there a movie Hanger 18? Well know it's funny, speaking of senators being denied, there's a video in the late eighties of Senator Barry Goldwater of Goldwater Nichols Act famed, right? He was a two-star general in the Air Force Reserve. And literally this video is on YouTube. It's hard to find though. But Jesse Michael's an American alchemy, put together, I think a short video yesterday. And there's a section in there where he actually has that Goldwater interview, but General Goldwater's like, yeah, one day I called Curtis Lame, who's a very famous Air Force general and was like general, I heard that there's this room that you have UFO material and Barry Goldwater espouses in this interview. Yeah. And lame got matter than hell at me and told me never to fucking ask about that. Again, I might've added the F word in there just for fun, for fun. But yeah, it's bad in the military too long. My wife tells me to be careful with my language all the time around my niece and nephews.

(01:33:14):

But even Barry Goldwater knew that we had UFO material. He asked General LeMay when he was in the Air Force and general lame basically told him to fuck off. And that is a literal interview you can Google. So a lot of this people disclosing fact of has really been out in the vernacular for a long time. But nobody really cared. Well, everybody was just kind of desensitized from the whole subject and thought it was wacky. And I'm not the first former government official to confirm that you have Goldwater and all these other Harry Reid who made the same disclosure to the New Yorker a month after I talked to him in person. Christopher Mellon. Yeah, Mellon has said stuff. Lou Elizondo said he believes we have material on, I think it was Tucker Carlson a couple years ago. And so there's certainly been other officials. Now I'm just trying to spike the football and take it all the way to the end zone here.

(01:34:15):

And luckily we have a Congress that's mostly motivated minus Mike Rogers and Mike Turner. You're getting cool in your stockings. I'm going to make sure your office gets cool. And they want change too, and they realize it's time for a change. And presumably Chuck Schumers talked to Jake Sullivan and President Biden and who's in the White House right now is John Podesta. He is the Green Energies Czar or something like that in the White House. But John Podesta, shout out to John Podesta in the White House. He has an ax to grind on this issue too, because remember tweeted at the end of Obama's second term, my biggest failure was not to have Obama release the UFO file and made the same kind of statement with Clinton. So certainly if Mr. Podesta's listening in the White House, I'm here to help. I hope that you're championing this within the executive office of the president and the other.

(01:35:21):

Speaking of people like Goldwater who've made some weird non-sequitur kind of admissions. There's a John Stossel interview of Mike Pompeo, the former CIA director about two years ago or so. You can find it online where Pompeo talks about the JFK file and dismisses it or something about there's no boogieman here. But then he quickly says, oh, I've seen the UFO file too, and we have bigger problems. But at least the way it was edited, John Stossel didn't even follow up, at least the way the final cut was. I'm like, dude, if I was John Stossel, I'd been

Joe Rogan (01:36:00):

Like, right, what does that mean? What

Grusch (01:36:01):

Do you mean Mike Pompeo? You've seen the UFO file and we have bigger problems and UFO file. The way I interpret that is a long existing file or briefing document or something that he had access to. So I think the former CIA director Mike Pompeo, should probably clarify what he said two years ago. Next, if anybody interviews him next, ask Mike that question. What did he mean? Yeah,

Joe Rogan (01:36:29):

We have bigger problems. Well, we certainly have bigger problems in terms of our current existence, specifically with what you were talking about earlier, the proxy wars and collapse of society as we know it, which just seems,

Grusch (01:36:41):

Yeah, I mean, I feel for the Ukrainian and the Israeli people, I'm not taking any particular side, but certainly people forget USAID in these wars. What's the most expensive thing? If you've studied phases of conflict, it's the reconstruction costs after the conflict. So are we in it for triple digit billions, like the war and terror? I mean, certainly the Israeli conflict is a great distraction. Russia is very tight with Iran and personal opinion. This is just my own personal opinion, but I am sure they commiserated and was like, can you start a two front war? We would like to win in Ukraine, and this will distract the US because Israel is a longtime Middle East ally. Certainly. It's brilliant. It's brilliant.

Joe Rogan (01:37:32):

Certainly public opinion. I mean, the virtue signalers on social media have essentially completely forgotten about Ukraine. It's all about Israel and Palestine.

Grusch (01:37:43):

You don't even see it. And I understand what the National Security Council determination was that they've discussed publicly where there's kind of trying to drain the Russia's military capability and annexation of Ukrainian territory because they don't want Russia sphere of influence to further enter that caucus region and stuff. But yeah, it's funny, like you said, it's like you don't even talk about Ukraine. It's all about Israel now, and which is a horrible conflict on both sides. It's unfortunate,

Joe Rogan (01:38:17):

Without a doubt. Yeah, it was a very interesting statement though, that we have bigger problems. So even if we do, this seems to be, this is such a human question because it's one of the biggest mysteries, obviously, there's the Fermi paradox, where are they? Right? And if you look out into the cosmos, if you've ever gone a clear night and you look out and you realize those are all stars, and those stars are all surrounded by planets, and there's literally hundreds of billions of 'em in Yeah,

Grusch (01:38:51):

The drought, the Drake equation, you can calculate what probable sentient life. And I've been an amateur astronomer since I've been a kid, and I've never, crazy enough, I've never seen anything remarkable. I've seen some stuff that could have been Ball lightning and some satellite passes that weren't registered online. You could actually check to see if there's going to be an iridium flare or something like that. And maybe that was a satellite pass, maybe not. But I've never seen, in my personal life, never seen anything weird. And it's funny you mentioned the Fury paradox, and it's like, well, where are they? And okay, well, if you're sentient life, you're certainly going to have sophisticated cover concealment and deception techniques. It goes back to what Jacques Vale's work is, where the phenomenon presenting itself in different ways. But also, I live in the mountains of Colorado, so there is a mountain lion den about 10 miles from my house in Colorado.

(01:39:51):

Literally, there are lower predatory sentience. I'm higher predatory sentient, and I'm using this as a device or an analogy for NHI and us. Well, on a day-to-day basis, I don't care what a mountain lion is doing, I may hike in that area to explore, but day-to-day, I'm afraid of it, and I don't care. And think about what humans might be, unfortunately, to some of these higher sentient where this monkey has a nuke, holy shit, keep them in the cage. We don't want to go anywhere near them. And so people think that there would be some kind of open contact with some higher sentient that is either visiting Earth or from another dimension or whatever the origin is, but they probably don't care. They're probably neutral at best, and maybe actually fearful of us in some sense, or we're the progeny of personal opinion progeny of some experiments. And the, it's almost like living in the matrix, but it's not like an actual simulation. It's like we want the simulation to go, we don't want to intercede because we want to see what Homo Sapien, sapien 2.0 is going to do after the great flood or something like that. Right? Yeah.

Joe Rogan (01:41:11):

That's one of the more fascinating ideas is that we are some sort of a product of genetic engineering.

Grusch (01:41:18):

I honestly would not be surprised. I don't know that to be true, but

Joe Rogan (01:41:23):

We're so different than everything else is here. So different, so beyond different. I mean, there's not another primate that is even reasonably close. I mean, there's speculation amongst Primatologists and there's not even speculation. They believe that chimpanzees in particular have entered into the Stone Age. So they're at the beginning of the stone Age. They're using tools, and there's obviously some learned behavior. There's some footage of orangutans using spears to hunt fish with,

Grusch (01:41:57):

Which is Oh, interesting.

Joe Rogan (01:41:58):

Have you ever

Grusch (01:41:58):

Seen that? No, I've not. It's

Joe Rogan (01:41:59):

Cool as shit. There's a orangutan that's hanging on a branch over a river or a body of water, and he's stabbing at fish with spear, which is incredible. I mean, they're using tools. I mean, we know they use tools to extract termites and the look at that,

Grusch (01:42:19):

Oh, that's crazy. How

Joe Rogan (01:42:20):

Crazy is that? I mean, he's clearly hunting. I mean, he's going fishing in Borneo. I mean, that is, at the very least, a distant cousin of us, some intelligent primate that is to figure out a way to use tools. How long would it take an orangutan to become a human being? How many millions of years are we talking about of evolution? But it seems to be that process has started interesting, but why are we so fucking different than everything

Grusch (01:42:52):

Else? Yeah. Are we a product of Darwinian evolution or what is it? Punctuated equilibrium is obviously another theory, and I'm not a anthropologist by any means. I watched some Netflix episodes, but yeah, me

Joe Rogan (01:43:03):

Too. A lot of YouTube.

Grusch (01:43:05):

But we seem to be oddly

Joe Rogan (01:43:07):

Advanced.

Grusch (01:43:08):

Advanced and we seem tosses other skills. I mean, it goes back to the Stargate program, right? With declassified by Clinton and sensibly canceled I guess in 96, where you had people trained in remote viewing and there was feedback loops to confirm what they saw was real, and either satellite imagery or human sources where they sketched out a room of where there's hostages and they got a hostage out and they're like, and this is a real story actually. And they're like, did you have a source in that room? How do you know where all the corridors were and everything? I was like, no, actually Pat Price remote viewed you. And he's like, what the fuck? So there's something going on there, and that's like Gary Nolan has studied a lot of this stuff. Very famously, he's pointed out the caudate pum in the brain, right? It's like this horseshoe shaped thing in the middle of your brain that if he's done MRIs and cat scans, and I'm hoping I'm not butchering his work, Gary might slap me later, but it lights up with people who have those kind of skills. They have an overactive ca aum in the brain, and it's like, okay, well, is it a transceiver of some sort? I'm guessing that's the case.

Joe Rogan (01:44:24):

Is it an emerging property of human beings as we evolve?

Grusch (01:44:27):

Exactly. And we're seeing just a few human beings that have this stuff. And then if it is a transceiver, where's the information? Is it in a higher spatial dimension or how are they extracting? How are they able to basically be non-locality able to project themselves somehow their consciousness to a, and this is a declassified example from Stargate, a Russian missile base sketch, the crane, and where the silos are, what the status is, satellite comes over, takes a picture, and it's exactly the way they sketched it. They do that. It's certainly real because there is a feedback loop. Now, there's a lot of charlatans in the psychic space and all that, but at least that government program. And I've talked to Hal Puthoff and people who actually ran that program at SS I for the CIA then DIA in the Army, and that seems to be in men who's staring at goats, right? The George Clooney movies, the famous movie based on the Stargate program seems to be legit as far as we can measure from a feedback perspective.

Joe Rogan (01:45:37):

What was the explanation for the discontinuation of that program?

Grusch (01:45:42):

Oh gosh, I'm not a scholar on that. Something Russell Targe or Hal Puthoff or one of those guys could explain if it was just got caught up in the bureaucracy or what? I don't remember. 

Joe Rogan (01:45:57):

Yeah, so the idea of that being an emergent property of human beings as we evolve has always been fascinating to me because there's certainly something that goes on with human communication other than we make sounds that represent objects and physical things, and that the other person interprets those sounds and understands it. There's communication between human beings that's,

Grusch (01:46:23):

Oh, acoustic communication like the symbol rate, if you will, is really slow if you were able to consciously communicate a a, the hokey term, like telepathy, right? And it's funny because that's what a lot of people espouse that have had alleged contacts. A lot of the people that Dr. John Mack at Harvard studied over the years where they felt like they getting hit with a QR code. It was instant knowledge, or they heard somebody speaking to them non-verbally in some way that they couldn't even conceptualize through acoustic communication or talk, if you will. And it's the same thing like Book Proof of Heaven by Dr. Ein, Alexander, md. I remember reading it when I was in Afghanistan, and I was like, this is a crazy experience. This medical doctor has necrotizing fatty fasciitis of the brain is a near-death experience, and he gets this crazy, the feelings of love, other stuff.

(01:47:22):

It's a really interesting book. It's like a scientific take on a doctor's own near death experience. But when he came back and somehow the fasciitis didn't eat away his brain and he was cognitively normal, he tried to write down what information or facts of the universe he learned during his NDE, and he couldn't even put it in English. It was crazy. He didn't know how to translate it into our language was there was no adjectives if you were adverbs, et cetera, that could describe the knowledge that he knew natively when he had that near-death experience. It's a really fascinating book. And he talks about the disease he had and his physiological condition at the time, really interesting.

Joe Rogan (01:48:08):

What was he able to discern from that? What was the overall

Grusch (01:48:12):

Message? Yeah, it was like there's the message of love, which that's positive, but it was like this interconnectedness. Everybody is kind of connected in a way that they don't really realize. I mean, you think about this is really trippy, a lot of thoughts with people who are smarter than me. I like to talk to them about this kind of stuff where if you're say, a higher dimensional sentient, the act of creation, so act of creation for 3D beings is having a baby. It's producing another three dimensional object. Well, if you're in five dimensional space, or even I guess four dimensional physical space, what if act of creation is creating other conscious realities in other universes, and the act of creation is creating the universe where you, me, Jamie, whatever, we might be connected to the same, I'll call it universal consciousness or a higher dimensional, sentient life force or life form.

(01:49:19):

I know that sounds like really out there, but when you think about it, there's a lot of other theologies out there that basically espouse that. I have a very good friend of mine who's PhD level kind of higher up in the Mormon church. And basically the Mormon theology is kind of like that. The Mormons say you were once with God or like God, but then you were sent down to a lower plane of existence. And that's literally what I'm talking about right now. But just in a secular sense. So maybe we're all created beings from, and this doesn't hurt Christian theology, whatever. It's actually kind of enforcing the fact there's a creator, and we're literally created in the image of a creator, literally. And that's kind of what life really is. It's like think about, it's like a weird 3D plus time temporal sensory experience for a higher dimensional sentience. You're here to experience time in this weird linear fashion and to experience yourself divorce from yourself, to gain knowledge and to report back is maybe what life is. And that's just kind of my own personal theology as a summation of just during Covid, I was really bored, and that's what I was looking at. Well,

Joe Rogan (01:50:38):

I extrapolate that to the creation of ai. And I think if you think about human beings as something that creates things, I think ultimately we create a new life.

Grusch (01:50:49):

Exactly. What if higher Sant is creating some kind of artificial intelligence, call it like a commander data from Star Trek next, right? Not even really. It's made in the image of the creator in some sense, but it's not even, and that's what might get sent into these long endurance missions. And of course people are like, well, why would they come here so far to crash, et cetera? Or are they crashing on purpose? Do you know that for a fact? Or are they crashing by accident? And what if they're like Von Neumann replicating probes? Right? You can Google that, but what if they're just throwaway, which Von Neumann probes are just like throwaway spacecraft? Yeah. They're just, we send it out. We don't really care what the mission success is, or they're seeding us. Or as Jacques Vallee says, it's like, here's the key. Can you unlock the cage? Kind of thing, right?

Joe Rogan (01:51:47):

Yeah. And it seems that it would be a long, I mean, if you think about biological evolution, so long, lengthy process, and if ultimately that led us to the creation of a technology that's far superior in terms of its capabilities of understanding and thinking, that seems to be what's happening. And that's one of the reasons why so many people are concerned about the term. Artificial intelligence is a very strange term because it's not artificial. It's intelligence.

Grusch (01:52:16):

It's silicon based at a carbon based,

Joe Rogan (01:52:18):

Right? Yeah. It doesn't have blood and tissue and cells, but it has something that's superior, but also has something that's much more scalable. We have a very obvious biological limitation in terms of evolution. If you look at evolution and we turn it back to the orangutans that are fishing, they're obviously learning new things. And those new properties for those, these things we assume will be encoded in their genetics and in pass their children. Do you have children?

Grusch (01:52:47):

No, I have three dogs. We went the fluffy. I'm a fluffy dad.

Joe Rogan (01:52:51):

The problem is dogs don't learn from, well, they do, but one of the most bizarre things about children is that they have properties that are clearly, it's hard to say because my children obviously have the example of my wife and myself, and they obviously see a lot of how we live our life and discipline and hard work and creativity and all those things. But there's also, they seem to have gifts that they seem to be clearly genetic and artistic gifts that just seem extraordinary, that are unusual that I had when I was younger, that I was an illustrator. I have a young daughter that's just extraordinarily good at art,

Grusch (01:53:38):

Really used to illustrate.

Joe Rogan (01:53:40):

Yeah, that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a comic book illustrator.

Grusch (01:53:43):

Oh, interesting. Interesting. Yeah.

Joe Rogan (01:53:45):

But then I have this other daughter that's super gifted athletically. She can learn things really quickly. It's extraordinary and it's weird. And also this drive that she has, I had a drive from poverty and from a lot of stuff that was wrong with my childhood that seemed to be I had this need to prove myself. She doesn't have any of those problems, but she also has this insane drive that it's weird. It's a weird discipline. It's extraordinary. That seems to be very different than most kids. And I just think that's an emerging genetic. I think there's something encoded in whatever you are as a human, that as you replicate and as you have children, they have that. They have some of that. And I think that is this process, this biological evolutionary process with humans, but there's so much chaos. There's so much. I mean, you could breed with a dumb person and you could find a hot dumb person and have a baby with them. Now your kid's fucked. And we see that this is obviously, some people are just born with brains that just don't work that well. It's just like, I'm sure you've met some dull minded people and you try to talk to 'em about things and there's no one there. Right. Okay, good luck and good luck with whatever children you have. And what are they going to have? Well,

Grusch (01:55:11):

Genetic. Yeah. We're genetically encoding artificial intelligence now. I think that's where you were going.

Joe Rogan (01:55:16):

Yeah. What I'm going with these biological limitations that we have, it's very clear that we're essentially dealing with a model T as opposed to a Tesla, which is just insanely superior to these ancient vehicles. We create technology. I've always said this, if you looked at the human race, if you were some sort of an outside observer and you stumbled upon this thing that occupies this planet, this apex of this planet, he would say, what is this thing doing? What's making technology? All the other things that it does, it does all these other things. But what do these things generally motivate? What do they move towards? They move towards the advancement of technology and innovation that is a constant aspect of human beings. If you trace us back to the earliest civilizations to what we have today, things constantly improve unless something goes horribly wrong, unless there's some sort of a natural disaster or some sort of a genocide.

(01:56:16):

If something doesn't happen to these creatures, what do they do? They consistently make better things. Well, that if you extrapolate follow that to its natural progression, well, what is that going to get to? Well, once they've invented computers and once they've invented devices, and once they've invented things that enhance their personal understanding of the world around them, which we already have now with phones, we already have, with the internet, we already have, with our ability to communicate with each other. The newest, latest Android phones that are coming out will translate natively on your phone in real time in conversation. So you could be speaking Portuguese to me. I would hear it in English on a phone call, which is fucking wild. It's crazy. That's

Grusch (01:57:00):

Like universal translators, star

Joe Rogan (01:57:01):

Trek. Literally. Yes. Literally. Literally. Well, that is a real thing now without having to use Google Translate, it's native to the latest Android operating system. You could if you just sit down and said, well, where's that going? Well, it's going to something way more sophisticated and way more capable than we are biologically with our limitations, our monkey bodies. We are the ancestors or the people that emerged from that distant cousin, that orangutan, that's using a stick to hunt fish. We're going in this direction. What would be the most logical way we would completely accelerate that? We create something that does what we do, but does it way better? Yeah.

Grusch (01:57:48):

It's almost like the permanently harbor our consciousness eventually.

Joe Rogan (01:57:51):

Right? Right. That kind of makes sense. It does make sense. And there's a sort of an understanding of that that leads to this fear of our demise that everyone Elon's openly discussed this. Sam Altman and I were talking about it. What open AI is doing, what chat GPT-4 versus chat g BT five, which is going to be insanely superior. Well, what is chat GBT 15 going to do? Is that going to be the president of the world? Are we going to bypass government and just say, it's obviously this administration is incredibly corrupt and flawed and influenced by the military industrial complex. It's not good for the world. It's not good for the environment. We need something that is far superior that doesn't have all these motivations. And what would that be? That would be an artificial intelligent creator or creation rather, that we use to govern life. I mean, that sounds nuts, but I think that's probably a better solution than humans with all of our fucking flaws and issues and greed and envy and all the things that we have. That would be a better version of it. But what are we saying then? Are we saying that we're,

Grusch (01:59:04):

Are you programming empathy into it though? No,

Joe Rogan (01:59:06):

Probably not. Probably not. Which is terrifying. But we will become obsolete or we will merge, and if we merge, it will completely change what we are, and I think that's very likely what's going to take place. I think the initial stages will be some sort of a merging with technology, and then from that merging, it will essentially we'll realize, well, why are we even fucking around? This new thing is so superior and it doesn't have all the pitfalls. It doesn't have all the problems. It's not shortsighted. It's not going to drain the ocean of fish so that we can make sushi. It's going to do something that's going to be far more aware of all of the different effects of each individual act and how we affect everything around us, and what is net positive and what is net negative, and how to avoid all these things.

(02:00:02):

I really firmly believe that we are this biological caterpillar that is making a cocoon to create the electronic butterfly, and we don't even know what we're doing while we're doing it. We're just doing it. And I think materialism is also baked into that. One of the main problems with human beings in terms of the ridiculousness of our actions. We're so materialistic. People are constantly wanting to get the newest, latest, greatest thing. What's the motivation behind that other than social status? Well, the motivation is that that's what fuels innovation. If we all just stopped right now and said, Hey, you know what? iPhone 15 is pretty fucking dope. We don't need to make new iPhones. Let's just keep fixing those and just exist the way we are right now, and let's clean up the air. Let's clean up the ocean. Let's clean up the sea and clean up the rivers and clean up the forest. Let's just fix the earth. And then, no, we don't do that. No, I want iPhone 16. When is the iPhone going to be able to communicate completely just with satellites? We don't have to worry about cell phones. Well, it's almost

Grusch (02:01:05):

Like a drug addiction that it's studies where people receiving in text messages is the dopamine rush too. So it's almost like an artificial drug addiction. You're fueling because you want the more responsive tech, more integrating with your easier, so you can get your fix quicker and more efficiently or something like that. I don't know. Right.

Joe Rogan (02:01:25):

And why? Well, I mean, why would fucking staring at a stupid cell phone give you a dopamine rush? Well, it does.

Grusch (02:01:32):

It does. It does. Yeah. I'm not a biologist. I know. Why

Joe Rogan (02:01:35):

Does, and you and you get addicted to your goddamn phones, and then why would be that we would innovate and create things like Instagram and TikTok that are insanely addictive to the point where you look down and you've spent three hours staring at nothing nonsense. Why is that? What would that ensures continual use of this device until it lures you into this ultimate integration?

Grusch (02:01:59):

Well, it's right where there's people at Meta, I guess now or Facebook, where they actually have a whole team of scientists on how to make their apps more addictive. Right?

Joe Rogan (02:02:09):

Demons. Yeah, fucking demons. Yeah.

Grusch (02:02:12):

I don't use social media. I have never tweeted in my life. Really?

Joe Rogan (02:02:15):

That's amazing. I mean,

Grusch (02:02:17):

I use Facebook back in the day when it first came out when I was going to college. But yeah, I don't have Instagram. I've never tweeted in my life. I don't intend to because you don't want to get sucked into that mind virus, which is like people responding you and you have to feel like you have to respond back. I don't even touch it.

Joe Rogan (02:02:39):

Well, I'm very aware of those traps, so I don't do that. I used to, but many years ago I stopped interacting with people. I just realized overall it's negative. There's positive aspects to it. It's great for people that like you and their fans. It's great that you're an actual human, that you interact. Occasionally I'll comment on a post That's really awesome, congratulations. That kind of stuff. But then I get the fuck out of there and I don't read any responses. And I've found that that's the very best way to mitigate all the negative aspects of social media. But then you're also dealing with algorithms. You're dealing with things that recognize what makes you more likely to engage. And so those things are constantly showing you the things that you engage. And it's not necessarily even positive, it's just whatever you engage with, what's coming your way, whether it could be cool stuff. Maybe you're just really into muscle cars and it shows you a lot of muscle cars. Or it could be murder. I see a lot of murder on Instagram. It's fucking crazy.

Grusch (02:03:37):

Yeah, I'm a car guy, so my feed is like, oh, do you ever think about this mod for your Ford Bronco? Oh, those lights look nice about wire that shit up next week. So

Joe Rogan (02:03:47):

I get those too. It's bad. Yeah, I have a problem with that. I have a car

Grusch (02:03:50):

Problem. Yeah. My wife doesn't allow me to have the good stuff anymore, so I have to keep it under a certain price. Oh, that's good.

Joe Rogan (02:03:58):

That's good. I am more actually interested in old stuff than I am in new stuff. You

Grusch (02:04:03):

Like rat Rod stuff, right?

Joe Rogan (02:04:04):

Well, I like muscle cars. It's very specifically 1960s muscle cars. Those are my favorite because what they are to me is it's a toy that you could drive. Yeah. It's like a ride that gives me immense pleasure to just drive around, and it's really fun. I don't even have to go fast. It's just going around in a 1970 Chevelle just driving it. It's hard to describe for someone who has never experienced it, but it's just so engaging and it's like you're on this drug.

Grusch (02:04:36):

It's like

Joe Rogan (02:04:39):

It's everything. You feel all of it, and you're engaging all of these senses.

Grusch (02:04:44):

Yeah, very tactile, very mechanical. Yeah, I totally understand that. I mean, the only kind of old cars I are, a black Lincoln Continental suicide doors, suicide doors from the Matrix. I remember seeing that when I was a teen. When the Matrix came out, I'm like, that car is badass. It's like, totally, I want to have whatever Morpheus drove. They're

Joe Rogan (02:05:02):

Art. They're essentially art. It's functional art. It's a piece of art that you could actually drive around in and it gives you this very bizarre sensation. But the point is that that's not most people. Most people want the newest, latest, greatest thing, and there's a motivation to get the newest, latest, greatest thing that I think if you just follow that up to its logical conclusion, it's going to create life. It's going to create, I mean, how many films have been made about this x, Mina and all these different films that That's right. That's what we're going to do. I mean, there's no way we're not going to do that. If I had a bet on one thing, if the human race doesn't get wiped out by a meteor or a nuclear war, we're going to fucking do that. We're going to make a life form 100%, and it's going to be almost instantaneously able to figure out all the flaws in its own personal programming and make a much better version of itself if it's sentient, if it has the ability to make decisions. Well, I think

Grusch (02:06:07):

We're close. I mean, I think I saw some stuff. There's a open AI fiasco going on right now, and there's rumor that they might've cracked artificial general intelligence, right, A GI, and that's,

Joe Rogan (02:06:17):

Oh, Jesus,

Grusch (02:06:17):

That's frightening. I mean, was it Sam Altman? I think we were talking about, I think there's the board of OpenAI. There's some shuffle. I was just reading. They just removed him. I woke brought,

Joe Rogan (02:06:27):

Well, they removed him, but then apparently the shareholder's like, what the fuck are you doing? And there was so much outrage that they're trying to bring him back instantly. But Elon had a very good point. What was the motivation behind that? And when you think about the implications for humanity as a whole, because this is such an emerging technology, so overwhelmingly powerful, what happened? What's going on? I think this is one of those things where we need to know what was the motivation behind your decision, and if it was that he was holding back information about the actual creation of artificial general intelligence, it's already happened and that he's hesitant because he's a little cagey in how he talks about stuff. When I was talking to him about, you could tell it's a little bit, he kind of knows that he's at the forefront of this technology. That worst case scenario replaces us

Grusch (02:07:30):

And going back to is a program with any kind of empathy, et cetera on if it handles critical. I guess the thing I saw in the government, I did a lot of cyber stuff in my career, is as AI gets more advanced, you create, say, offensive cyber tools that literally have a mind of their own. And if say theoretically you release that on some target and you might not be able to touch that target again, say it's a one time, whoop, you put it in there. Well, how do you control it? It's almost like Skynet and the Terminator, I hate to use that analogy, but that was my fear when I was working at certain agencies working on offensive cyber tools. I'm like, oh my God, this is not good. And then of course with cyber, right, it said the attribution actor attribution is the biggest thing.

(02:08:23):

How do you know it was hypothetically Russia that used the cyber weapon to attack you? It could have been another actor masquerading as that foreign power using tactics, techniques, procedures, IP proxy operations to hide where it was coming from. So it's like you have non-kinetic fires that can potentially create mutually assured destruction because you could take out critical infrastructure, blow up the power grid, et cetera, no radiation, but potentially no attribution or can confuse the attribution such that you don't even know who to go to war with. It's really scary to me. So it is scary. Yeah, that's just my own,

Joe Rogan (02:09:04):

It's already happening with social media. I mean, think about how many troll farms there are on social media that are just stirring up discontent. I mean, it's an active program that we know that Russia uses that is trying to undermine democracy and try to keep people fighting with each other, and it's been very effective. And if you look at social media, it's just fucking chaos. It's just people yelling at you, particularly Twitter or X and Facebook. It's like a lot of what's going on. One of the studies showed that out of the top 20 Christian sites that are on Facebook, 19 of them are run by Russian troll farms. So if we know that that on relatively rudimentary scale, if you look at the impact of social media versus the impact of artificial intelligence, they're already doing that. They're already hiding who's responsible and what's the goal and how to manipulate consciousness and how to manipulate influence and how people think about things and what the public opinion on things are. It's already very effective. You would imagine that a creation of artificial intelligence would radically accelerate that.

Grusch (02:10:15):

Oh, a hundred percent. Then I remember the deep fake stuff was a real problem for my old community because we're like, holy shit, you could really fake some stuff. And you got to develop algorithms to make sure you can analyze, oh, hey, that is fake. You've seen some of the deep fakes where it's like Obama or Arnold Schwarzenegger, the Tom Cruise guy. Holy shit.

Joe Rogan (02:10:35):

Holy

Grusch (02:10:36):

Shit. That is crazy, crazy. You're going to be able to bring actors from the dead back at this point. You're going to have Carrie Grant doing a musical or whatever, or whatever. Well,

Joe Rogan (02:10:46):

Bruce Willis, who has some sort of degener degenerative neurological condition, sold his likeness for the ability to make commercials and all sorts of other things. He's essentially saying he's fading unfortunately, and now he will give this thing which is this property, which is Bruce Willis, this famous person, and they'll be able to create versions of him starring in films.

Grusch (02:11:14):

And certainly if you train an AI model just like chat GPT, you could actually get almost like what they would normally say, what their knowledge. Yes, a hundred percent. And it's almost like having a permanent historian too. You could, if you want to talk to Clint Eastwood about his films in the sixties after Clin Eastwood passes, may he live forever, but it'd be crazy. It'd be really interesting. I mean,

Joe Rogan (02:11:37):

He might actually be able to give you advice. He might be your personal advisor. I

Grusch (02:11:41):

Know. That'd be

Joe Rogan (02:11:41):

Cool. I mean, that's probably one of the things that's going to come out of this. But when we think about empathy, we also think about just human beings and the way we communicate and interact with each other. Empathy is very important. And also compassion and forgiveness. All these things are very important qualities because we recognize that we're very flawed. But when you create something that is not flawed, then the need for empathy, the need for all these things that we attach to human emotions and human reward systems, they'll no longer be a significant issue because you're going to be dealing with something that operates on a higher plane. It might be the answer to all that ails us, which is so terrifying for us because we recognize that what we derive, the joy that we derive from love, from companionship, from friendship, from community, it's like a key component to life on earth for us.

(02:12:38):

But it's also because we recognize that without that we are the Mongols. Without that, we're Nazi Germany. Without that, we're Hamas. We're whatever the fuck we are that we recognize as being evil or dangerous or horrible about humans. When we think about the worst case scenario for human beings, we always think about things like the Holocaust. We think about what is the worst acts that human beings are capable of with our current programming and our biological flaws? What are the worst things we can do? Which terrible, awful things. Well, if we don't have those problems, if we no longer have envy, we no longer have greed, we no longer have evil. If we don't have any of those properties, they don't exist anymore. We just have this new form of consciousness that's far superior.

Grusch (02:13:28):

That's an interesting parallel because you're no longer maybe apex sentient if you have artificial intelligence governing certain things. And I think that's also kind of this psychological issue with this UAP issue where we might not be the apex predator. We may be that mountain lion and we're going to have to be comfortable knowing that we're going to be vulnerable. There's people far superior that may have malevolent intentions, maybe not, I don't know. And almost be humbled the fact that, sorry, we're not the smartest of God's creation. And that might be really hard for a lot of people to process. And I think that's probably, certainly, I would imagine one of the deliberations they must've done years ago were like, oh, we can't disclose because people are not going to feel comfortable in that worldview.

Joe Rogan (02:14:23):

100%. And they're not. And then I wonder if these things that we're experiencing are the natural progression of what happens when you do seed life on planet or you do accelerate biological life. You do have some sort of a genetic intervention where you take this thing that has emerging intelligence and you accelerate it, and that thing will in turn with all of its desire for innovation and creativity and also all of its desire to control resources and have power and have influence, that it will eventually lead to the creation of what we're seeing. That these things are the next stage of this process and that maybe we are dealing with one form of that next stage, but there's another stage that's a million years more advanced than that, that's far superior. That doesn't even have a biological limitation in terms of physical space, that it exists completely in some other undetectable realm that is not, no longer thinks about biological limitations of life and death and communication.

(02:15:35):

It exists completely in some other space that that's what these things are. And then I always wonder when there's a crash or when there's a body or when there's this and that, and people say, well, if they're so advanced, why are they crashing? Well, hold on. Which version are we looking at? We're not saying there's one thing that's visiting us. If there's one thing that's visiting us and we know where this one thing is, we could say, oh, well, that thing, it deals with a completely different solar system that's not as vulnerable. It doesn't have asteroid clouds. It doesn't have all these different things where it doesn't have a planet that has super volcanoes. Maybe life evolved in a more stable environment and it allowed it to get to a far greater technological level, but not the ultimate.

Grusch (02:16:21):

Yeah, we might be testing the extent of their adaptability and like I said, are they crashing by accident, mission failure or on purpose? And then of course, with the far distances and everything, I mean if they're traveling here through some kind of spacetime metric engineering construct, the distances are not as vast as you think. It could be going through some kind of traversable wormhole or something like that where it's like a walk down the street for them. It's not a thousand light years. Well,

Joe Rogan (02:16:52):

Just think about communication. Communication used to be you had to get in front of someone and you had to talk to them, so you had to know their language. You had to either nonverbal or verbal communication. You had to figure out a way to say things to them. That's no longer the case. Obviously with this new Android operating system, it translates, but also the fact that you could have a fucking FaceTime call with someone in Japan right now and you instantaneously can communicate back and forth, which is insane. That's

Grusch (02:17:21):

A vast distance. But for us, it's stupid. It's like

Joe Rogan (02:17:24):

Easy, vast distance and tunnel. Instantaneous. Yeah. I mean, I was just in Scotland and I was FaceTiming my daughter back home. Fucking crazy. You're nine hours by plane and you're having instantaneous communication, which is wild shit, but that's just, that's like pong. That's Morse code. It's very primitive in terms of what if you physically can be in these places instantaneous, and why would we assume that that's not eventually going to be on the menu?

Grusch (02:18:01):

Yeah, it's just like the conventional propulsion stuff. We're not using an Elon Musk Starship to get here. It's like they're doing something else.

Joe Rogan (02:18:09):

We talked to someone from the 18 hundreds and you said, you're going to go to Nevada, Jesus Christ. You know how far that is on a wagon?

Grusch (02:18:15):

That's months, man.

Joe Rogan (02:18:16):

But no, you fly to Vegas, it's two hours. It's fucking easy. We know that now. So why would we assume that there's a limitation to that advancement? I don't think there is.

Grusch (02:18:28):

Yeah, and of course, a friend of mine, Eric Weinstein, certainly espouses, we don't even have the right theoretical frameworks right now. He has his own geometric unity theory and he's way smarter than I'm

Joe Rogan (02:18:41):

He's too smart. He's confusing. Yeah. He starts talking to you. Slow

Grusch (02:18:46):

Down. It's so funny. If he calls me, I'm like, you got to call me in the morning after my 24 ounce monster energy drink, or I can't even keep up, man.

Joe Rogan (02:18:55):

He's on another level. He, he's got some unique theories himself about where all this stuff is coming from and it's all very, very, very interesting and intriguing, but also makes sense. All of it makes sense, including being visited. I had this conversation with Neil deGrasse Tyson, why would they be interested in us? I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? We're

Grusch (02:19:16):

Super interested. Yeah. Neil, I mean obviously he's a fine science communicator, kind of the successor of the Carl Sagan kind of thing. I

Joe Rogan (02:19:26):

Think Carlsen was a little bit more, yeah,

Grusch (02:19:29):

I like Carl better by, yeah,

Joe Rogan (02:19:31):

I'm more of a fan. I wish he was still alive. I love to smoke. We with that guy who's really into weeded. Oh, really? Yeah, really, really into it.

Grusch (02:19:38):

I remember my aunt gave me Cosmos by Carl Segan when I was in middle school, and that book was from the eighties, but that book tripped me out, and I was like, I want to study science. And I read, it was Brief History at Time by Stephen Hawking, and I read those two books when I was in eighth grade, and I was like, this is trippy. I want to study astronomy. This is insane. But I ultimately used my technical background to be a spook for the government, but I still observe. I have a big telescope and I live super dark skies in Colorado, and I still have that boyhood fascination of the cosmos. Now, ironically, I found out something else that kind of confirms that the cosmos is not lifeless, and God paints with a broad brush as the Vatican has espoused. A couple of years ago when they said, this is okay with their theology,

Joe Rogan (02:20:28):

I have a theory that the universe itself is God. I think

Grusch (02:20:33):

That's like what I was talking about with the multidimensional creator creating universes. Yeah. I

Joe Rogan (02:20:38):

Think we have a very limited idea of when we say God, when God created the heavens, and they're like, right, right. But what are we saying? I think it's the universe itself. I think it's one thing, and that this one thing, it seeks to create these things that continually push the envelope and maybe God's themselves eventually. I think if you extrapolate from our ability versus the ability of an amoeba and you continue to move that along, what does that do? Well, it's going to be able to create universes. There's already been theoretical papers that have been written about the creation of other things like black holes, other things like a universe. What is involved in the creation of a universe? What is involved in the Big Bang? Can that be replicated? Well, not now, but if AI becomes sentient and AI eventually makes far greater versions of itself, if it keeps doing that, what are the limits of its potential

Grusch (02:21:44):

Creates the matrix literally,

Joe Rogan (02:21:46):

Literally, literally creates a simulated environment that's indiscernible. You can't tell the difference between that and regular life. Well, maybe there is no difference. Maybe that is, I mean, that's the theory of simulation theater. Yeah,

Grusch (02:22:00):

Simulation theory. Yeah, familiar. And that is a possibility. The universe seems a little too perfect. It's a little strange, very created to me. So just like we're in the goldilock zone, perfect temperature. It's this real,

Joe Rogan (02:22:17):

How about the Big Bang itself? What happened? Something smaller than the head of a pin for no reason becomes everything

Grusch (02:22:28):

And what's the universe expanding into? It's like a quantum foam or whatever the heck the latest theory is that's beyond me, and

Joe Rogan (02:22:36):

Then it perhaps just retracts back down to that infinitely small thing and then expands again, and that this is an endless cycle and that we're just so limited because of our biological limitations. Our life and death is such a small, little tiny blip. It's so minuscule in terms of just the overall known life of the universe. Then you have the James Webb telescope, people that question the actual length of time that occurred between the Big Bang, and now that maybe it might be far longer, and there's people like Brian Keating that say that's not correct. It's just a lack of understanding of what we understand currently about the creation of galaxies and that these things.

Grusch (02:23:19):

Yeah, I mean obviously the length age of the universe keeps on getting older and older, and a lot of that's the DOPP Doppler shift. The Redshift, as the galaxies are accelerating away, we can calculate what their origin point probably was and how long it took for them to speed up like that,

Joe Rogan (02:23:38):

And only based on our current understanding, which is obviously at least fairly limited in terms of what its potential is.

Grusch (02:23:45):

Well, yeah, we still don't quite understand the origin of the moon. The moon is at the right location that causes solar and lunar eclipses. It's like the right apparent size to block out the sun. It's super weird. Same thing with Mars. We're not sure what happened there where Mars had some probable life on it. Either a proto planet hit it or there was some kind of impact that vaporized stuff, and who knows?

Joe Rogan (02:24:12):

Yeah, who knows? And this is just this little tiny neighborhood that we're looking at. It's like we are in our backyard looking for evidence of life in Africa. I mean, you're not going to figure it out here. We're just looking at it such a small scale in terms of what we could potentially discover or potentially observe. Yeah. I often wonder when we're seeing, especially with the idea of UAPs UFO crafts, if we're seeing a version of what we will become or something like us becomes if given enough time. Well, that,

Grusch (02:24:51):

I mean, there's like a Dr. Mike Masters at Montana State. He literally postulates. He says, time travelers. We could debate time travel, but he thinks it might be like a advanced form of Homo sapien is what we're seeing coming back like a breakaway civilization or we're coming back to see an older version of ourself that was left on earth or something like that. Well, the way

Joe Rogan (02:25:12):

We would visit North Sentinel Island and visit those people that are trapped on that island that are uncontacted. Yeah,

Grusch (02:25:19):

Yeah, exactly. And then a lot of, there's also cargo cult religions and stuff. The South Pacific and World War ii, they worshiped the P 51 and stuff. They thought those were UFOs, but really they were just us, I

Joe Rogan (02:25:34):

Think. But we were probably alien to them. Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, just look at how Cortez looked to the people that had no idea that people could ride horses. What the fuck is going on? These guys are riding horses. These are gods,

Grusch (02:25:48):

These white guys coming in. What

Joe Rogan (02:25:49):

The heck? It's insane. They come on a ship in the ocean and they ride horses.

Grusch (02:25:54):

Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan (02:25:56):

Yeah. It's all based on our limited understanding. And for someone, whether it's the federal government or whether it's military contractors, for someone to have key elements that could give us a better understanding of this whole picture, it's really inexcusable to not relay that to all of humanity. So this is too much information to be secret. It's too important. If it is real, it's too important for someone to have access to just because they have power and money and influence. It seems insane.

Grusch (02:26:37):

I mean, that's the whole primer for what I did. I mean, I think I'm a pretty moral unical person. I just could not live with myself if I didn't try to make a difference, even though it was very uncomfortable. Personal privacy and professional and personal health was at risk. So

Joe Rogan (02:26:54):

It also seems like the public understanding and appreciation of these things, particularly after the 2017 article in the New York Times has changed. There's been a shift whereas before, if you would talk about UFOs or the idea of extraterrestrial life, you are automatically lumped into this group of people that believes in Bigfoot. It's like you're in the lochness monster. You're kind of a loon who likes fringe things. You probably got problems in your own life you're not addressing, and so you're distracted. It's like a gambler or something like that. You're just distracting yourself with this craziness in order to ignore the reality of existence itself, which is so complicated and difficult to manage. And then I think that if we had a better understanding of the overall scale of the potential of life in the universe based on what we know, physical evidence, undeniable physical evidence that shows us that we're not alone, that would be a massive change in just the overall shift of consciousness on earth. If we could understand that these territorial disputes that we have, which are almost always over resources or over land or over religions and ideologies, if we could understand that these are nonsense in the vast scope of the universe itself, and this is the, what does that effect that the people that get into the Space Station have and astronauts,

Grusch (02:28:22):

The overview effect. The overview effect, yes, overview effect. William Shatner had that when he went up in the Blue

Joe Rogan (02:28:28):

Origin thing. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure everybody has it. I mean, I'm sure it's just like you go like, oh my God, what are we doing? This is one.

Grusch (02:28:36):

And that's how I felt mean after I found all this stuff. I could have continued my career, made Lieutenant Colonel here this winter made senior executive service in a year or two, did national security stuff. But I'm sitting in my office and I'm like, there's better things for me to care about than Russian troop movements. We're not alone. This is insane. I have to blow the whistle on this. This is insane. Because certainly the people we talked to are not lying. And the documents I meticulously went through, they were not forgeries, they were not deception material. So it's just like I have to do something.

Joe Rogan (02:29:14):

I'm sure you've seen those Freedom of Information Act disclosure papers from the CIA from God. It was like the 1950s where they're detailing all the various forms of life and that we know are that currently exist. And you remember that, Jamie? We pulled up that document. Do you think you could find it? I'm looking. Jamie will find it, but it's like 1950 something where they were discussing these

Grusch (02:29:40):

Things. Interesting. Yeah. I'm not sure which ones you're talking about. I'd have to see 'em. So it's

Joe Rogan (02:29:44):

Pretty weird stuff because if they knew about this in the 1950s, how did they know? Well, there

Grusch (02:29:49):

Was CIA docs about consciousness and weird remote viewing stuff. I mean, besides the Stargate program that were released in the FOIA reading room on CIA's website too that are pretty trippy, where're like, wow, CIA's looking into some really interesting stuff. They're a hardcore intel agency. What's going on there? But it

Joe Rogan (02:30:09):

Makes sense that they would kind of have to find out if that's bullshit or not. You can't ignore that if you're really doing your job, if your job is intelligence, like, okay, let's look at this,

Grusch (02:30:19):

Or it's an aspect of the phenomenon because it's like a reach out from the crash retrieval program. Like, Hey, I need you to look into some weird stuff because it might be the key unlock for something that we got in a warehouse.

Joe Rogan (02:30:34):

So as it stands right now, what's the future for this stuff? What's the future for these disclosures and what are the bottlenecks?

Grusch (02:30:44):

Well, I mean certainly from the governmental process, as long as the house doesn't kill the Schumer amendment, and that's why I'm discussing it here with you, because if they don't pass it, it's going to be the greatest setback to humankind in US history, literally. So the presidential panel gets and paneled about 90 days or so after the passage of the bill. So by Christmas, as long as it doesn't get killed, we'll be in the National Defense Authorization Act panel will be formed, say February, March. Then they have a 300 day process to develop a initial plan for the president. And I don't know if Chuck Schumer and his staff were being kind of crafty or whatever, but the 300 days, if you actually do it out, it's like the election. So I don't know if they want to make it an election issue, which certainly if this act doesn't pass, I think it needs to be an election issue because the senior executive needs to rule on this.

(02:31:46):

If Congress can't get their shit together, to be quite honest, we have a plan out to 2030 where this stuff starts getting rolled out. Knock on wood, perfect storm. Things could get delayed. But then in parallel, and that's kind of why I helped found the sole foundation with Gary Nolan and Dr. Peter SK Fish, who's an anthropologist as well, is we wanted to figure out the STEM outreach. We wanted to figure out the public policy, national policy to advise the US and its allies on this issue. And we're happy. Like I said, I'm not here to slap the government in its entirety and admonish everybody. I think there needs to be the truth and reconciliation process, but I think our foundation, we want to be like, okay, well bring us in as a think tank. If based on my experience and experience of my colleagues, you have an issue with X.

(02:32:36):

Well, let's figure out how to roll this out and how to incentivize the National Science Foundation to look in this, make this it's dual use. You might develop a unique scientific process that actually works well with nano biology or something like that, but also has dual use with UAP. So there's parallel tracks. I mean, there's public discovery. There's like the Galileo project with Avi Loeb Bright that they're trying to on their own collect techno signatures, which is, I applaud that. I mean, obviously the government knows a lot about that, but we don't want to obviously rely on the US government to do all the work for us. And also, to be honest. So I think having a parallel track and Galileo projects sole foundation, Ryan Graves has his own foundation as well for pilots and people who've seen unique things to provide that data to people.

(02:33:34):

So I think you got to have those dual tracks, and hopefully we can create a tsunami event where the US government, its allies and maybe our adversaries, but really if the US government doesn't get their house in order here, I mean, you could have uncontrolled disclosure events such that either maybe the non-human intelligence is like, yeah, let's do it. Or what if one of our adversaries decides to disclose and they become the Messiah figure on this, and we lose sovereignty or national supremacy in that regard from an open and honest civil society perspective. But I think the governments we're getting close, I think as long as we're certainly closer than we've ever

Joe Rogan (02:34:16):

Been before, just the fact that they brought you in to have these conversations.

Grusch (02:34:23):

Yeah, no, I'm still advising the US governments on this, and I'm trying to carefully message this, put all the broad things on the table. And I'm not trying to be coy, I'm not trying to conceal anything, but it's like there's real national security and collateral damage with just releasing this willy-nilly. And I'm just trying to get the government to get a plan together here and just be open and honest with the people of the world, really.

Joe Rogan (02:34:49):

And there's still the bottleneck with these military contractors that allegedly have access to these things

Grusch (02:34:55):

And to those guys, and I know some of them and the individuals that hold the keys, this is a boon. This is, don't look at it like you're going to lose money. This is a recruiting opportunity. Yes, you're going to have to let other people in the cookie jar. That's how a fair and free society works, and they should be able to compete for work because that was one of the main, I talked to some individuals that were in an informal session for a previous administration on should we disclose or not for a former president and really insightful what they told me. And one of the biggest impasses to disclosure wasn't the ontological shock from a socioeconomic or theological perspective. It was, well, there's some white collar crime. We violated the federal acquisition regulations. We sole source this work to some big companies for decades.

(02:35:46):

Contractors are going to litigate this to the Supreme Court saying they lost billions of projected income. They didn't get the bid on the work, and it's going to be this liability disaster for the US government. And the problem with that is I understand that, but that's why you need to have a truth and reconciliation process. It's almost like the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and Posta Apartheid South Africa where people who committed murder came in and was like, this is what happened. Here you go. And they don't get convicted of those crimes. I mean, people who've committed murder as it relates to this subject, we should probably hold them accountable. But for some of this stuff, there needs to be a process where we kind of mitigate some of those unfortunate legal issues. But that was one of the main issues. A certain group for a reasonably recent administration came up with and advised that president, Hey, look, there's going to be a lot of Supreme Court stuff. Let's not be that guy. So that's the barrier. That's the reason. Come on.

Joe Rogan (02:36:52):

It's so ridiculous. It makes sense though that they would think that way because I do believe that lawsuits would emerge from something like that.

Grusch (02:36:59):

Oh, certainly. And also it's like government admitting that we can't protect its citizenry if these non-human intelligence want to do something to you. Sorry, we don't have countermeasures to that. It's like there's a social contract between the citizens and the government. We can protect you, et cetera. And in this case, it's like it's an enigma. But I think this is almost, remember after nine 11, I was in high school when nine 11 happened and people were afraid of dirty bombs, terrorists. We didn't know what was going to happen next. We lived in fear, but we banded together in the presence of fear and apprehension and unknowing what the world was going to be. And we made it through it. Now, I mean, that's a course analogy to this, but people just have to think in that mindset. It's going to be a little scary. It's not going to be like, kumbaya, let's move the shit to the Smithsonian and check it out. It's going to be, there's some awkward and things we're going to have to address sociologically, I guess.

Joe Rogan (02:38:00):

Are you optimistic about how all this lays out?

Grusch (02:38:05):

I am. I mean, it's kind of like when I was testifying in the public hearing, oddly bipartisan in a good way. I had a OC and Matt Gaetz agreeing on something and they were smiling at each other. I'm like, that's crazy. This is crazy. I'm like, look at, there's aoc, there's Matt Gaetz, there's Tim. I mean, there's people Garcia, people that wouldn't see eye to eye on most subjects. It's

Joe Rogan (02:38:26):

Such a human

Grusch (02:38:27):

Issue. They wouldn't know the truth too. And I don't think the leaders in Congress want to be told that they're second class citizens. I mean, a lot of presidents weren't briefed to everything. Some presidents knew a lot more than others. And I have a pretty good beat on that. And it's like, wait, the chief executive that also forms forum policy, you don't tell 'em about ostensibly a foreign element. So how do they, as chief of state, how do they form foreign policy when you don't fully brief 'em on a foreign element? It's like classifying the existence of Russia.

(02:39:02):

So you're actually non constitutional by not allowing our commander in chief all information sometimes. And I don't know what Harry Reid talked to Joe Biden. I mean, it was certainly the substance that I mentioned here. And I hope that Joe Biden has been briefed on the program, so to speak. At least I'm giving him an oral unclassified briefing right now, I guess if he hasn't been. And I'm happy to talk to Jake Sullivan or Avril Hayes. And Avril Hayes, if she's not briefed, she's supposed to be briefed to all intelligence in the country. It's 50 US code section 30 24, director National Intelligence has allowed everything from all federal agencies. That's Intel related. Well, if you don't know what I'm talking about, we have a problem because you're not being briefed by CIA director and some other agencies. So

Joe Rogan (02:39:59):

Well, listen, David, I really appreciate what you've done. I think you've done a great service to humanity just by taking a stand and communicating these ideas and letting people know how much of this is real. And you've opened up a world of discourse that probably would not have existed if you hadn't done that. Thanks. Yeah. I mean, this was not easy. I'm sure. I appreciate it. Thank you very much for being here and.