2023-09-10 - Yes Theory “UFO Whistleblower David Grusch Tells Me Everything” - Jesse Michels / David Grusch

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Transcript:

Speaker 1 (00:00:01):

Three men who previously served in the military are set to speak publicly about what they saw in the sky and heard behind closed doors. Alright,

Speaker 2 (00:00:09):

One more guy. In the light tan suit,

Speaker 3 (00:00:11):

They have let in 15 people from the public

Speaker 2 (00:00:14):

There is David Grush, who's a former intelligence official. He has knowledge of a covert government program to recover crashed alien spacecraft. Do you

Speaker 4 (00:00:24):

Solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Jesse Michels (00:00:32):

That is David Grush, a former Afghanistan combat veteran and 14 year high ranking intelligence officer. Hey.

David Grusch (00:00:39):

Hi. Nice to meet you.

Jesse Michels (00:00:40):

Hey, come light man. In 2019, he was tasked by the Pentagon to investigate UFOs as part of the unidentified anomalous phenomena task

David Grusch (00:00:49):

Force. I had no interest in UFOs or whatever, but I thought it'd be kind of an interesting thing to see what was going on.

Jesse Michels (00:00:55):

During his investigation, rush started to uncover a program that was being systematically hidden from him. The American public and our elected representatives we're

Speaker 7 (00:01:04):

Done with the coverup and we're going to get to the bottom of it. Dead Gummit,

Jesse Michels (00:01:07):

A program whose mandate was to find and retrieve crashed UFOs and attempt to rebuild them into functional vehicles that humans can fly.

David Grusch (00:01:17):

And I'm sitting there, I'm like, okay, well this is a thing

Jesse Michels (00:01:20):

Thanks to new UFO Whistleblower Protections. Grush gave comprehensive documentation about these programs to the Inspector General In the summer of 22. He had brought people on the secret UFO programs directly to meet the Inspector General's team and had even given the staff the names of the aerospace companies involved in these programs and the locations where the UFOs were ostensibly being kept.

David Grusch (00:01:44):

I filed my complaint. I told him who to interview and they ultimately were like, holy shit, this is credible.

Jesse Michels (00:01:50):

In June of 23, he outed himself to the Public Giving News Nation and the debrief, exclusive interviews.

Speaker 2 (00:01:56):

Do

Speaker 8 (00:01:56):

We have bodies? Do we have species

David Grusch (00:01:59):

Naturally, when you recover something that's either landed or crashed, sometimes you encounter dead pilots.

Jesse Michels (00:02:07):

Then in late July, he testified before Congress in Washington DC the hearing was a wild moment in history. Yep. There I am with a Mark can deal from the second best YouTube channel online. Yes, theory. If you want instant inspiration and exposure to untold human stories across the world, throw them a subscription and stay tuned for their UFO documentary, including Dave Coming Soon. I've known Dave for about two years when we were introduced by a mutual friend who had served on the Air Force with him and through many a phone call he's put up with my wild speculations on the truth behind UFOs.

David Grusch (00:02:43):

Sometimes I'm like hanging up the phone calling me and I'm like, I don't know about this guy. I think he's really gives this

Speaker 2 (00:02:52):

Good morning.

Jesse Michels (00:02:53):

During the lead up to the hearing and in its aftermath, we were granted exclusive access. Let's

David Grusch (00:02:59):

It in.

Jesse Michels (00:02:59):

We actually held the first and only public hearing with Dave and 20 young yes theory fans in Washington DC after the Congressional, we traveled with him, hiked the mountains of Colorado, got covered in dust on ATVs. It's

Speaker 9 (00:03:14):

Done.

Jesse Michels (00:03:16):

Hung out with some llamas.

Speaker 9 (00:03:17):

What's the name of the llama? Playboy. Playboy. I think the name of the llama was boy

Jesse Michels (00:03:21):

And of course had a long form conversation. We discussed the history of covert UFO research programs, their connection with Robert Oppenheimer in the Manhattan Project, why presidents and elected officials may have been shielded from the UF secrets in the past. And of course his best theories as to how these UFOs fly, who their occupants are and why they're here. Oh

Speaker 9 (00:03:44):

God.

Jesse Michels (00:03:46):

Woohoo. While you'll see a candid side of Dave that you've never seen before, he's still somewhat limited in what he can and can't say.

David Grusch (00:03:55):

I don't want to get into specifics. I don't want to get into that. Yeah, I can't really. Can't go really beyond, can't make a personal.

Jesse Michels (00:04:01):

If anything slips that wasn't pre-approved by the defense department, he could literally go to jail. But there's a lot of pretty insane new stuff he does say

David Grusch (00:04:11):

Manhattan Project, they were kind of the first blue book.

Jesse Michels (00:04:14):

Do you think Bob Lazar is full of shit? Have we made any agreements with any of the aliens? Do you have a sense of the species? And if you combine our open source research with his revelations, you can actually piece together a sort of coherent picture of what's going on with UFOs and human attempts to reverse engineer them.

David Grusch (00:04:35):

Buckle up I guess. So

Jesse Michels (00:04:37):

Without further ado, this is the atom bomb of American Alchemy episodes. It's been marinating for months and it was executed with Manhattan project style secrecy. All of the crew members weren't allowed to disclose what they were working on, but I'm so excited that it's finally dropping and you are here to see it. So get your radiation goggles on. Hit subscribe and brace yourselves for a brain dump of everything you've ever wanted to know about UFOs from today's American Alchemist, David Grush.

Speaker 9 (00:05:13):

Different parts of the rain have different activities. You know that don't you? Maybe you should interview me.

Jesse Michels (00:05:40):

Hey man. Crazy day for

Speaker 9 (00:05:44):

Sure. Yeah.

Jesse Michels (00:05:46):

So what happened yesterday? I didn't read the news.

David Grusch (00:05:50):

My name is David Charles Grush. I was an intelligence officer for 14 years. I was my agency's co-lead and unidentified anomalous phenomena and transmedium object analysis as well as reporting to the UAP task force, U-A-P-T-F. And eventually, once it was established, the all domain anomaly resolution office AARO.

Jesse Michels (00:06:11):

Why were you placed on the U-A-P-T-F and the U-A-P-T-F for the people that don't know is unidentified anomalous phenomenon Task

David Grusch (00:06:18):

Force. Yeah. The UAP task Force director funneled a request through the ops center like, Hey, is there any intel officer for your agency would be willing to be a representative on the task force to kind fill that void with expertise from NRO in the Air Force. And my boss got the email, he forwarded it to me and he is like, do you want to do this? And I thought, well, I'm a reservist. I can put it on my performance report that I worked on a task force. I thought it'd be kind of an interesting thing to see what was going on.

Jesse Michels (00:06:48):

When did you start to realize that you weren't just kind of looking at anomalous phenomena and trying to classify it in the air, but you were being sort of systematically lied to about an internal reverse engineering program within the government?

David Grusch (00:07:02):

Yeah, I mean certainly going into it, I thought it was going to be air trash, some prosaic national natural phenomenon. I remember started interviewing some military members that saw some really profound stuff like large triangular craft football field size that they hovered over them. And I was like, whoa. And these people were very serious, very upset to actually divulge that a personal thing. It's nothing classified. It was a personal observation they had on a drive to work. And then one thing led to another. I had certain colleagues of mine that I've known for years approach me close the door in my office and was like, look, you need to know about some other stuff you guys are not getting access to and led down this.

Jesse Michels (00:07:53):

Why do you think they talked? Why do you think they spoke to you? Yeah,

David Grusch (00:07:56):

I think a lot of these guys were, they've kept the secret for so many years. They knew me, they knew what I was looking into. We reported to the Deputy Secretary of Defense in Congress at the time with the UAP task force, and I think they wanted some change. At least that's what they espoused to me.

Jesse Michels (00:08:16):

Is why do you think they wanted change?

David Grusch (00:08:18):

They felt that they were kind of limited and bringing people in the support they were getting, their treatment was harsh sometimes. And I guess they weren't really feeling the love anymore.

Ross Coulthart (00:08:30):

What's the first moment where you saw irrefutable evidence that what you're dealing with is truth is reality?

David Grusch (00:08:37):

I mean there were certain military cases we were analyzing that I just really couldn't explain in a prosaic fashion.

Ross Coulthart (00:08:45):

What can you tell me about these craft? Why do you know it's exotic?

David Grusch (00:08:49):

Based on the very specific properties that I was briefed on isotopic ratios that would have to be engineered for it to be at those levels. And then of course, read some intel reports that were provided to me in that regard. And I took that and I went to the agencies that wrote those reports and asked for access and when they deny you access, then it's a thing. And that's what happened to me time after time over a couple years. So

Ross Coulthart (00:09:20):

There wasn't a singular moment where you're just open the folder and you go, what the fuck is that?

David Grusch (00:09:26):

It was kind of like a slow burn culmination as I was processing it, allowing my worldview to open. And yeah, I don't know if there was a singular moment. I think it was some of the really, really trusted high level people we talked to when they stared us straight in the face very seriously and confirmed a lot of this information and the quality of people we talk to, if they ever go public, it'll blow your mind who we talk to. I was like, wow, I can't believe I'm talking to X who's a really important person and they're confirming these certain details and they're saying we need to protect this at all costs. And they're giving me kind of the whole speech about it. And I'm sitting there, it's like an out-of-body experience. I am like, okay, well this is a thing. I don't report to anybody and there is no plan. I'm not a part of some slow drip disclosure or anything. If there is a plan, I'm totally unwitting and holy shit. They've controlled me in a very passive manner. That is masterclass. But yeah, I'm not a part of some weird shit that,

Jesse Michels (00:10:36):

Did you ever at any point try to suss out whether you were being lied to because all of these people are coming from the same programs and so presumably there's some level of coordination between 'em. So how do you kind of get through and just make sure that they're not meeting in some back room saying, you say this to Dave, I'll say this to Dave.

David Grusch (00:10:55):

Yeah, no, for sure. So I thought maybe it was like a joke or something. Maybe it was like a P SIOP on me or something. I don't even know. And then, but the near 40 people, we talked to a lot of the guys I've known my entire career and they wouldn't lie to me. I have a friendship with them and for them to disclose to me that kind of stuff, and it ended up being a false, would've totally torpedoed the friendship. And I also went out of my way to find people who don't know each other either. And I had other higher ranking colleagues of mine go talk to other people that I didn't even personally talk to. That group, of course we took all that and I'm like all the people who conducted those interviews, I made them get interviewed by the Inspector General Cross on our T's here. This shit is crazy. And I mean you can never be perfect, but man, I was so freaking careful to make sure I wasn't getting fed some bullshit. If they were in coordination together on a disin info campaign, holy fuck, I shouldn't even be an intel officer. I should have sniffed that shit out. So

Speaker 11 (00:11:58):

In the last couple of years, have you had incidences that have caused you to be in fear for your life for addressing these issues?

David Grusch (00:12:08):

Yes. Personally,

Jesse Michels (00:12:10):

There's a Chris Mellon story where he's supposed to meet with somebody on the program and he has the meeting all set up and two weeks before the meeting he says that the guy just randomly has a heart attack. We

Speaker 12 (00:12:21):

Were about two weeks away from meeting when he died, when he had a heart attack.

Jesse Michels (00:12:26):

What was the last special access program that leaked? They don't generally leaked.

David Grusch (00:12:30):

People are like, oh dude, wouldn't it be broadly leaked or whatever. I'm like, as somebody who is super cleared to a lot of that conventional stuff over the years, stuff never leaks. It doesn't come out. There are plenty of things that are pretty serious. They're broad that have never seen the light of day.

Ross Coulthart (00:12:46):

Of course you're going to tell someone that their entire life and their family and their kids, everything is in danger. It doesn't feel too farfetched that someone will keep a secret if it threaten

David Grusch (00:12:58):

Their life. Yeah, their life. Look dude, you're not getting promoted. You're going to lose your job. The psychology of the typical career government worker rights, stable paycheck pension, maintain clearance. So if any of that's threatened, they're going to capitulate in most cases the threatening nature of some of their indoctrinations where they're like, this is treason. You're going to Leavenworth if you ever tell anybody not in the program. And oh, by the way, what's the penalty for treason? Oh, right. Execution. And I was like, well, fuck it. I'll be the mouthpiece for you. I'll be the leader I guess, and I will shepherd you privately to the appropriate people that could be a recipient of your disclosure. You don't have to go public, but I'll do the thing. I mean, it's not just me that has come forward really. I mean, Schumer, Rubio, all those guys are like, look, a bunch of freaking high level officers came to us and either they're crazy or the shit's real.

Speaker 13 (00:13:57):

Most of these people at some point, or maybe even currently have held very high clearances and high positions within our government.

David Grusch (00:14:04):

And then Schumer was compelled to write that big 64 page amendment that talks no shit, non-human tech recoveries, and you're the majority leader who's tight with the president putting out a law that will be signed here hopefully this fall. That really puts the fucking executive in a bind. So I don't think that that was done in a vacuum.

Jesse Michels (00:14:28):

I think the one thing that can get the left and the right together is bloat in the military industrial complex malfeasance therein.

David Grusch (00:14:35):

Yeah, nobody likes that. I don't think members of Congress don't like getting the door shut on them either. So they want that information. They represent the

Jesse Michels (00:14:43):

Answers. And that was the Matt Gates story.

Speaker 14 (00:14:45):

Several months ago, my office received a protected disclosure from Eglin Air Force Base that there was a UP incident that required my attention. We were not afforded access to all of the flight crew. It

Jesse Michels (00:14:58):

Was basically denied access to a crew that had seen kind of a diamond shaped formation of orbs. He should be fully clued into if it is terrestrial and origin because he's overseeing,

David Grusch (00:15:12):

He's on the armed services committee.

Speaker 15 (00:15:14):

If you could just name anything titles, programs, departments, regions,

David Grusch (00:15:20):

I'd be happy to give you that in enclosed environment. I can tell you specifically

Speaker 15 (00:15:24):

Thank you.

Speaker 7 (00:15:25):

Maybe if we could get in a confidential area of skiff, we could talk about that. But unfortunately we were denied access to the skiff.

Jesse Michels (00:15:35):

A lot of the narrative for the whole thing was that you were denied a skiff. What'd

Ross Coulthart (00:15:39):

The skiff stand for? Just for

David Grusch (00:15:40):

People. It was a specialized compartmented information facility,

Ross Coulthart (00:15:44):

Which basically means that you guys would just get into a secure place where you can share confidential.

David Grusch (00:15:49):

Yeah, that's a facility that's accredited to talk at the top secret sensitive compartment and information level. And yeah, the members are pretty incensed that I believe it was like they couldn't reserve a skiff and then they couldn't give me a one-time read on back into the right accesses since I left the government.

Jesse Michels (00:16:06):

Do you have any sense of why that was denied? I

David Grusch (00:16:08):

Don't know. No, I don't really have insight. It was something they mentioned to me. It was security or something denied it.

Speaker 16 (00:16:17):

If you believe we have crashed craft stated earlier, do we have the bodies of the pilots who piloted this craft?

David Grusch (00:16:24):

As I've stated publicly already in my News Nation interview biologics came with some of these recoveries. Yeah,

Speaker 16 (00:16:33):

Were they I guess human or non-human biologics.

David Grusch (00:16:37):

And that was the assessment of people with direct knowledge on the program I talked to that are currently still on the program.

Jesse Michels (00:16:43):

One sort of bombshell soundbite from the hearing is Congresswoman Nancy Mace asked you about biologics. Ross Khar in the News Nation interview asked you about pilots coming out of these crafts. Do you want to just speak to that a little bit?

David Grusch (00:16:57):

Yeah, I mean, it is a mind blowing side of it, right? It's a little easy to imagine an artifact or whatever, but when you start talking about the biological side of it, it really throws you for a loop psychologically. It did for me. And I talked to the people that were on that aspect of the program, if you will. And I mean it comes with the territory. I mean, buckle up, I guess I call 'em pilots because that's like our vernacular. I don't know what their actual job was. Nonhuman

Jesse Michels (00:17:33):

Non-human intelligence. Yeah, but they had bodies.

David Grusch (00:17:37):

Yeah,

Jesse Michels (00:17:37):

I mean, were they alive? Were they dead?

David Grusch (00:17:39):

I don't want to get into specifics. Yeah, I know a lot of that stuff.

Jesse Michels (00:17:43):

Out of curiosity, why are you allowed to say that NHI pilots came out of the craft, but you can't go?

David Grusch (00:17:50):

Well, that's all I put in the pre-publication stuff that got approved. I mean, I could go back and ask for more, but like I said to you earlier, man,

Jesse Michels (00:17:59):

Not your place, not your job context. And it's helpful context for the audience to realize that you literally have these contours with which if you have to operate with any barriers, any

David Grusch (00:18:08):

Specific barriers, specific knowledge I garnered when I was on the other side of the door. If I want to talk about that publicly, everybody who has had a job I have has to submit to a thing called Doser at the Pentagon, DOD pre-publication security review. Even if it's about this stuff, I know it sounds insane, but you literally have to say, this is what I want to talk

Jesse Michels (00:18:29):

About. Why do you think they approved it?

David Grusch (00:18:30):

Catch 22. So they'd have to self-identify and highlight their concerns to redact. So the office who would propose a redaction say it's a three letter agency or whatever, they'd have to be like, this office objected to you saying crash retrievals here, we're citing the security classification guide. No, and then you can litigate that to get it unredacted if you think that's an inappropriate application of security. If it got redacted like that and it cited what organization and what security reason it is, I would just publish that and then the public can make its own interpretation why the US government's withholding information about that kind of thing and wanted to sequester my speech. So it's a catch 22 honestly for them. And damn if they do, damn if they don't. I just wanted to put enough out there, touch on all the most sensitive parts like the biologic side and things that really need to come out, but I don't want to overly disclose, it's not my job, but enough to put the flag out there that we need to elevate this. This is serious. Some of the uncomfortable stuff like the biologic stuff, like I mentioned during the hearing, you got to realize some baggage is coming with it besides the Indiana Jones warehouse thing that everybody thinks,

Speaker 17 (00:19:50):

Why do the politicians, why do the people who are higher up feel like they need to hide evidence or I'm just like the root cause. Why is this a topic? So

David Grusch (00:20:00):

Yeah, I mean, I can only know what the mindset was multiple decades ago and anything in government, they're resistant to change. So this is the way we set it up. You remember trusting government was high back in the forties and then also society was less secular, so they're worried about the religious ontological shocks as well. And they never really developed a, we'll call it disclosure plan for what it's worth, and they just were like, this is the way it's been and we're going to keep it that way and we don't want Russia and China to be exposed to any of this info and we don't want to give them an edge. And unfortunately, it's that kind of low energy thinking.

Ross Coulthart (00:20:39):

If you got to ask one question to ask someone who is not alive anymore that you feel could answer a lot for you, who would you pick and what would the question be?

David Grusch (00:20:53):

I would probably ask SAR Barker Oppenheimer and be like, what was your thought process in the forties and fifties? Scrolling this away? I mean, besides overlaying the Manhattan Project secrecy, because often

Ross Coulthart (00:21:08):

Was the one who created the classification that included the UFO stuff. Oh,

David Grusch (00:21:12):

All those guys, the guys that were involved in Manhattan were overlaying the same ecosystem of secrecy and some of the same ways to protect stuff that they're protecting our nuclear secrets. If you read the definition of special nuclear material in the Public Atomic Energy Act in 1954, it basically states any material that releases any kind of atomic energy that would be

Jesse Michels (00:21:40):

Retrieved crash material. So it's kind of a energy sneaky way.

David Grusch (00:21:44):

No, it's if you actually read the Atomic Energy Act, if something is not a nuke, but it has radiological energy coming off it, alpha beta decay, whatever. Same secrecy, same secrecy.

Jesse Michels (00:21:57):

Until now, we haven't really had an exact understanding of the mechanisms of UFO secrecy. We do get a few hints throughout history though, in 1947 in the aftermath of frequent UFO sightings across the United States, Nathan Twining, the head of all aircraft development for the Air Force wrote a famous letter. He writes that the UFO phenomena is something real and not visionary or fictitious. Everyone today focuses on this part of the now famous twining memo that top brass at the Air Force is conceding the reality of UFOs. But the far more interesting part of the letter is the postscript where he writes about the possibility of American programs trying to build crafts with these capabilities. He writes that any developments in this country along the lines indicated would be extremely expensive, time consuming and at the considerable expense of current projects and therefore if directed should be set up independently of existing projects if you or the military industrial complex and had to keep a top secret UFO reverse engineering program fully shielded from elected civilian representatives moving in and out of government, which pass programs might be your inspiration. The Manhattan Project,

David Grusch (00:23:13):

Manhattan Project, they were kind of the first blue book. They were getting UFO reports back in the day, or some people, I'm colleagues with that. Their grandparents were actually the UFO report people on the Manhattan Project, and I remember being told that. I was like, really? Holy crap. That's crazy. There's a whole other side of Manhattan project.

Jesse Michels (00:23:32):

This is a wild revelation. Blue book was the Air Force's Official Program tasked with investigating UFOs in the fifties and sixties, but it was basically a propaganda mouthpiece for the Air Force explaining away and downplaying the phenomena for the public. Here Dave is saying that there might have been a real deeper program than Blue Book studying UFOs at the time, and it was probably very tied in with the Manhattan project, legendary French UFO researcher. Jacques Vallee told me the exact same thing.

Speaker 18 (00:24:01):

Project Blue Book was the best they could do at the time because they felt they had a real project going on that was secret. The Manhattan Project would've custody of it and then it would go into the Atomic Energy Commission and then it would go into the Department of Energy, which has its own line of clearances.

Jesse Michels (00:24:21):

But where were these top secret UFO programs taking place? Well, the first hint we get might actually come from the quintessential UFO story, the Roswell crash in 1947. As the story goes. In 1947, mysterious debris from a crash was retrieved by a rancher named Mack Brazel. After collecting the wreckage, the Roswell Army airfield issued a pretty insane press release stating that a flying disc had been retrieved from a local ranch. But within 24 hours, the military announced that the saucer had actually just been weather balloon cut to 1978, Lieutenant Colonel Jesse Marcel said that this was all just a cover story to divert public attention away from the truth that the Roswell debris was extraterrestrial tech, which contained bizarre hieroglyphics and malleable memory metal. According to him, the materials were eventually taken to write Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio. This actually makes sense. Wright Pat was the place that the military would take enemy equipment in order to reverse engineer it. In fact, just a few years earlier, the base was used to successfully reverse engineer a German pulse jet engine. When prominent elected government representatives would ask what was going on at Wright Patterson, they would get shut down. It didn't matter who they were, senators, presidential candidates, even presidents. If you didn't have a need to know you were on the outset,

Speaker 19 (00:25:48):

I called Curtis LeMay and I said, general, I know we have a room at Wright Patterson where you put all his secret stuff. Could I go in there? I've never heard him get mad, but he got madder and hell at me cussed me out, said, don't ever ask me that question.

David Grusch (00:26:13):

It's like, well, what's going on? Why would General may act like that to a sitting senator?

Jesse Michels (00:26:17):

So unless you're George HW Bush, Bush 41, who is director of the ccia as the president of the United States, you probably don't even know.

David Grusch (00:26:25):

Yeah, unless you've done the blood oath and you were like the ccia, a director something private previously, unless you have to stroke a pen to sign an executive order or something. Well, why would you have a need to know, unless you literally, as the commander in chief need to know it to make a decision.

Jesse Michels (00:26:43):

What else was housed at Wright Patterson? Well, it would become a nuclear engineering test facility and an anti-gravity research center. It also was the site for Blue Book, the anti u FFO Psyop that the Air Force ran in the fifties and sixties. So when you're running a secret UFO program, you have people working on the UFOs and then you have people working on throwing the public off the trail and basically ensuring that they have no idea what you're doing.

Speaker 20 (00:27:09):

The official Air Force reply has long been that there is no coverup, no coverup, no coverup.

David Grusch (00:27:23):

I've seen this other conventional programs, you compartment it so much. Some people don't know really what they're working on. Only the people that have the top level accesses can look down on all facets of the pyramid, as we say, and that hinders progress. And then certainly with this subject, when you're trying to crack an unknown unknown, that kind of obtuse security doesn't help either.

Jesse Michels (00:27:47):

When you say unknown, unknown, is it the USB drive to a caveman analogy where it's like the caveman doesn't know information theory doesn't have a computer to plug the USB drive into and we just don't even know where to start in terms of reverse engineering things?

David Grusch (00:28:02):

Yeah, it's like other people have given the analogies, like giving Galileo TI 83 plus graphene calculator. They open it up and they see circuitry and they're like, well, what is even this? I don't have a concept of a transistor,

Jesse Michels (00:28:14):

But even that or a monkey with an iPhone, you kind of know how to, yeah, if you open it up, sure you're confused, but you kind of know how to press the buttons and you realize there's this graphical interface or whatever that seems easier than caveman with a USB drive. So where are we in that?

David Grusch (00:28:29):

Yeah, I mean some of it is, it's hard to gauge how far in advance it is because just assuming a certain linear progression, I think some of this is they made an Asim total leap that put 'em over the edge to a different kind of plane of

Jesse Michels (00:28:44):

That's pretty fascinating, like a different timeline almost.

David Grusch (00:28:46):

If I was a betting man, some of this NHI, they're similarly as advanced as us, but they've just made, they've, what is it? Asymmetric evolution or whatever, they want a different path where we made nuclear weapons and stuff. They ended up making this civil propulsion kind of equivalent discovery where they're able to do this now, but they're actually not that much more advanced than you. And I

Jesse Michels (00:29:13):

Always found interesting the monolith in 2001 Space Odyssey, which is this sort of thing placed on earth that it inspires tech innovation. It's almost like John Mack would talk about a lot of these alien sightings being slightly more advanced, but barely comprehensible tech for the time, almost inspiring tech innovation. I

Speaker 21 (00:29:35):

Often think of it as laying breadcrumbs in a direction.

David Grusch (00:29:39):

The

Speaker 18 (00:29:39):

Communication could be, you think you're really smart because you blew up a weapon down the road here. Now look at this.

Jesse Michels (00:29:49):

Right, right.

David Grusch (00:29:51):

Well, it's just like we went from, you look at our own human development, we immediately, once we cracked the atom, I mean, holy crap, nuclear power, nuclear, nuclear weapons. We went from orders of magnitude of energy extraction up to 10 to the six tons of TNT equivalent, and that's kind of what we're talking about is we're like one discovery away to maybe manipulate space time or whatever.

Speaker 22 (00:30:20):

Based off of the information that you've been privy to, is there any indication that these UAPs are interested in our nuclear technology and capabilities? Yes.

David Grusch (00:30:29):

By external observation, sure. That could be a fair assessment. Yeah.

Speaker 22 (00:30:33):

Yes.

Jesse Michels (00:30:34):

The nuclear UFO connection is deeper and more bizarre than you can ever imagine. Remember that vice story that ran in 2022 about a town in Japan that's obsessed with UFOs? Well, it's a place called eno, and it's right next to Fukushima where a 2011 earthquake triggered a famous nuclear power meltdown or take this incident in 19 94, 62 elementary school kids at the Aerial International School in Zimbabwe said that they saw a silver craft descend from the sky and land on a field near their school. Well guess where the aerial school was

Ross Coulthart (00:31:11):

And an aerial school that was near a uranium mining site that is

David Grusch (00:31:16):

Right as far as I understand,

Jesse Michels (00:31:17):

But maybe the best collection of evidence around the UFO nuclear connection comes from a very creatively named book called UFOs and Nukes by Robert Hastings. He started to investigate and just speak to all these radar operators, and a lot of them claim some pretty crazy things around seeing UFOs around nuclear bases. Over

Speaker 23 (00:31:37):

The past 37 years, I have personally located and interviewed more than 120 of these former or retired military personnel

Jesse Michels (00:31:46):

Do have Robert Salas at Malmstrom saying that the whole base was actually rendered inoperable.

Speaker 24 (00:31:52):

This time he was screaming into the phone saying They're looking at an object, a red glowing object.

David Grusch (00:31:58):

Yeah, the sights were going down, were going down one by

Speaker 25 (00:32:01):

One. Very rarely does a missile malfunction, and I don't think any much more rare would be two at the same time, but never 10.

Jesse Michels (00:32:09):

You have Bob Jacobs at Vandenberg in 64. He is a photo instrumentation specialist. They're launching dummy nuclear warheads off of GLAS five missiles and seeing a UFO kind of wrap around it and take it down,

Speaker 26 (00:32:22):

And I said, it looks like we've got a UFO.

Jesse Michels (00:32:26):

You have hundreds of accounts of these missile man radar operators at nuclear sites who have no incentive to lie. In many cases, the incentive or on all cases, the incentive split in the other direction saying that they're seeing stuff.

David Grusch (00:32:40):

Well, no, the missiles, they're on what they call PRP personal reliability program. They have to report if they're like, take an ibuprofen for god's sakes because they're a key turner for nuclear weapons.

Jesse Michels (00:32:52):

These missiles go through the most stringent of mental health exams to get their jobs. They're literally the people we task with hitting the button that sends a nuke. By definition, they're the picture of mental health, and they're all steeped in a culture that frowns upon attention seeking time and time again, these missile men would see UFOs near nuclear facilities and without fail, the Air Force Office of Special Investigations would show up. Men in black style confiscate the footage, threaten the witness and swear them to secrecy.

Speaker 26 (00:33:21):

And he said, Lieutenant Jacobs, you are never to speak of this again. It never happened

Jesse Michels (00:33:27):

From Hastings work. We now know that UFO sightings were happening all across American nuclear production, missile storage and deployment sites, plutonium enrichment sites like Hanford, Washington and Savannah River site in South Carolina to nuclear stockpiles at Fort Hood, Texas and killing base camps from Los Alamos to Sandia to Malmstrom to Fe Warren. The list goes on. What is the connection with nuclear? Is it the kind of benevolent protector theory, they don't want us to destroy ourselves or is it some weird, they're mining us for something and so they want to protect their resources? Or is it the power unlock thing where we could rip space time and maybe be able to travel? They can travel, and so nuclear power is the axis along which we're making progress towards that. Yeah,

David Grusch (00:34:15):

Yeah. I mean, it might be as simple as it's an attractant, like a fly or mosquito to a blue light. It could be something as simple as that. I mean, it's so hard because to put yourself in a different sentient shoes to understand intent and all that, I mean, could be probing, could be reconnaissance, could be just mere curiosity. Yes. Oh, there are only two or three orders of magnitude away energy extraction from manipulating space time and an ocu bear warp drive type thing. And maybe they're interested in that too, to understand our development as a civilization. I mean, without having a penetration into their OODA loop or whatever, we'll never really know. It could be all of the above, and it's really impossible to really ever gauge. In 10,

Speaker 27 (00:35:08):

The controller told us that these objects had been observed for over two weeks coming down from over 80,000 feet rapidly descending to 20,000 feet, hanging out for hours and then going straight back up. For those who don't realize above 80,000 feet of space,

Jesse Michels (00:35:22):

It's just this cat and mouse sort of recursive, unsolvable where it's just very hard to classify. It's almost like playing with you a little bit. Even Commander David Fravor in his account was like the thing felt like it was breathing and looking at me and knew even said you, it slip in the testimony. It was like it definitely was aware of our existence. I'm like, how do you know that, man? You're not in the UFO's shoes, but I understand what he was saying, which is you can sense when somebody's looking at you.

David Grusch (00:35:49):

Yeah, I know. I've had some folks I talked to that had their own up close sightings. They said that they got that vibe too, and who knows if that's psychosomatic or what, but they did get a vibe like that too. When

Jesse Michels (00:36:03):

He's staring to the abyss long enough, the abyss stares back.

David Grusch (00:36:06):

Yeah, exactly. And then of course, I've had a very smart guy was like, well, did Darwin care to fully conceal himself when he studied the finches? And it's like they observe, they don't really care and they don't really care to interact, but they're just here to observe. But

Jesse Michels (00:36:22):

Is that your bias, that it's sort of an anthropological zoological model where they're studying us and we're in this kind of dish kind of

David Grusch (00:36:31):

Thing? Well, yeah, I think I'll give credit to Lou for the whole grill in the cage and throw it a banana, throw it the key and see if it could unlock the cage. And maybe that's what some of these crashes were. And it wasn't really a mission failure, if you will. It was maybe some seeding, this is a total theoretical framework here. We'll never really know, but

Jesse Michels (00:36:55):

See what you can do with this. Or the key is nuclear power or something. And it's like the gorilla has, we have the key, another analogy that Eric Weinstein loves to use is he talks about North Sentinel Island, which is an island of aboriginals who basically have not made any contact with civilizations off the coast of India. And the Indian government basically just lets them do their thing and kind of respects them. And take this analogy, if the North Sentinel East started developing nukes, maybe the Indian government would start to pay a little more attention to the extent that there is interference. I think one anomaly that's important to talk about is it seems to be like there's a lot of electromagnetic radiation that comes off of these crafts. And I remember talking to Gary Nolan and he mentioned that he was kind of given a file by the CIA and he had tasked with looking into this, and it was two things. It was people who had anomalous UFO experiences, and it was people who had experienced Havana syndrome,

Speaker 28 (00:38:06):

Diplomats and spies began to hear sounds and fall ill with a mysterious illness that people struggled to explain what became known as Havana Syndrome.

Jesse Michels (00:38:16):

And in both cases you have these kind of severe electromagnetic radiation effects and often differences in the caudate nucleus and putamen, which is in the basal ganglia, the dorsal striatum scarring of the brain, scaring the scarring, but also the neuronal density of that area of the brain would cause somebody to even make sort of contact. But do we have any theories on the electromagnetic radiation

David Grusch (00:38:41):

Component? I mean, certainly if we were to look at it from a relativistic perspective, well, that sounds like visible band light being blue shifted into the ultraviolet and you're getting literally a sunburn. And if you look at an ocu bear type thing where light's getting lens around the craft, et cetera, stuff should be blue and red shifting. So things coming towards you would actually red shift spectrally and the people getting burns, so that's ultraviolet, that's like ionizing radiation. So that would be light being blue shifted into the ultraviolet as it's lens across the bubble that the craft creates. And so we are seeing artifacts that seem to show that they're basically manipulating space time,

Jesse Michels (00:39:29):

And I guess that's why you get this sort of skipping across time effect or something. It looks like the things are just, you're literally folding space time, I guess. So you can get from point A to point

David Grusch (00:39:41):

C, you're riding a wave, basically. You create a wave and you're on top of the tsunami wave and you're riding across space time. It's fascinating. And then of course there's the other thing is if it's like an Einstein Rosen Bridge thing, two points on a piece of paper and you fold it, but the way they're jumping around and skipping is if you're riding the wave, it looks like you're moving very rapidly and punctuated kind of movements. If think of an accordion and the wave writings the accordion, when you flatten out the accordion like flat space time, you would smoothly move across. But I think we're stuck with Einstein stuff was amazing and nobody's really, I mean, there's obviously people with string theory, membrane, all these other different physics theories, quantum gravity, other theories, but there hasn't been something that's unified all the weak and the strong force, et cetera, and that's an ongoing thing, and they think finding the Higgs boon is going to be the big answer, and then we'll see. So

Jesse Michels (00:40:46):

Speaking of string theory, it feels like it just hasn't shipped a product. You have our best and brightest, often really smart people getting into this sort of field that maybe you can detect black holes with strings, but generally it's just not that useful.

David Grusch (00:41:02):

Well, string theory, I mean, mathematically it works out, but most of the stuff you can't empirically observe because the strings are so small. There's just no way of,

Jesse Michels (00:41:15):

There's 11 dimensions. There's

David Grusch (00:41:16):

No way of verifying that. It's a nice, I'll call it overlay that maybe this is reality, maybe it's not. It automatically works out.

Jesse Michels (00:41:26):

I think it's force fitting, gr general relativity and quantum field theory. But this brings up an interesting question, which is can we go down the tree trunk of physics and then find another branch? Clearly, quantum physics with nuclear and hydrogen bombs as its byproducts was becoming dangerous.

Speaker 29 (00:41:45):

It is an atomic bomb. It is a harnessing of the basic power of the universe.

Jesse Michels (00:41:51):

After the invention of these apocalyptic weapons was true, fundamental physics then concealed in deep black aerospace while public facing physics was sent into a cul-de-sac so it could do less damage. Were there actually updates in physics may mid-century that were not disclosed to the public? Okay, I realize this sounds kind of insane, but hear me out.

Speaker 29 (00:42:17):

Imagine that this billard ball is a proton.

Jesse Michels (00:42:20):

The golden age of relativity was a wild forgotten time in the history of American physics. This was a period in the fifties where the study of anti-gravity, yeah, you heard me right. Anti-gravity, experienced a dramatic resurgence of interest, not just among quacks, among real physicists.

Speaker 30 (00:42:38):

Since then, there has been a study but constant improvement.

Jesse Michels (00:42:42):

Roger Babson, a patron of science, was obsessed with finding the solution to anti-gravity. His gravity Research foundation held a popular essay contest, which garnered contributions from many of the top minds at the time. Meanwhile, another industrialist, Agnew Batson started the Institute of Field Physics in North Carolina, also dedicated to the study of anti-gravity. His Chapel Hill conference in 1957 included top physicists like Bryce Dewitt, Richard Feynman, Peter Bergman, Freeman Dyson, and John Wheeler, all there to discuss the role of gravity in physics. As physicist Louis Whitten would go on to say about anti-gravity in the fifties, it was in the wind, meaning it was everywhere. He

Speaker 31 (00:43:25):

Said, what are you doing about anti-gravity? And I said, well, I'm not against Gravity.

Jesse Michels (00:43:34):

Whitten actually worked in Martin anti-Gravity Research Unit. That's right. They had an anti-gravity research outfit. It was called Research Institute for Advanced Studies or RIAS for short. And Martin Corporation, of course would later become Lockheed Martin. Louis Whitten's direct boss at RIAS was a guy named George Trimble. And in 1956, article found in Jane's Defense Weekly, George Trimble said, we're already working on nuclear fuels and equipment to cancel out gravity, and added that the conquest of gravity could be done in about the amount of time it took to build the first atom bomb. By the time the sixties had rolled around, most people had kind of forgotten about anti-gravity.

Speaker 32 (00:44:17):

It quieted down because nobody ever got anywhere or it quieted it down because it did get somewhere and it went black.

David Grusch (00:44:24):

Yeah, it's kind of weird where as far as I know in my top logical physics history knowledge, where there was all these anti grab groups up until the early sixties and then until they vaporize,

Speaker 33 (00:44:38):

You know that there's physics knowledge held by aerospace companies that is not known. There

Speaker 32 (00:44:43):

Certainly is materials, knowledge

Speaker 33 (00:44:45):

Materials. Well, okay, material science,

Speaker 32 (00:44:47):

Which involves topological physics or whatever, whatever.

Jesse Michels (00:44:50):

It's hard to say whether anything real was discovered in the realm of anti-gravity or if it went black. But when aviation journalist Nick Cook tried to meet with the then long retired 80 something year old George Trimble through a friend of his at Lockheed Martin, this was the message he received back. I don't know who this old man is or what he once was, but he told me in no uncertain terms to get off his case, he doesn't want to speak to me and he doesn't want to speak to you. Not now, not ever. I don't mind telling you that he sounded scared. Did deep black aerospace secretly make a huge breakthrough in anti-gravity? Well, when he worked for Martin in the fifties, Louis Whitten specialized in non-linear algebra and topological physics. The two things that you'd need to investigate gravity and maybe how to beat it. He also did contract work on gravity for Wright Patterson Air Force Base.

Speaker 31 (00:45:45):

The reason there was a laboratory at Brightfield was to find out what we were doing and to help us do it. And I got a contract for Brightfield to do it, to do gravity, which I did very happily.

Jesse Michels (00:45:59):

And who is Louis Whitten's son? Ed Whitten just the most formidable proponent of string theory maybe of all time. Do you think that string theory, which Ed Whitten worked on is intentionally a bridge to nowhere?

Speaker 33 (00:46:13):

I have privately said to you that string theory was a very odd development because it both allowed physics to proceed as if it was doing something new while breaking no new ground in the physical world in which we live. I don't really know if you were trying to stagnate the field. Strength theory is pretty brilliant.

Jesse Michels (00:46:37):

And remember that Chapel Hill conference that's thrown in 1957 by Agnew Batson, who's obsessed with anti-gravity? Well, Louis Whitten was there, and the conference helped establish quantum gravity of which string theory is an offshoot in an interview with the American Institute of Physics, when anti-gravity gets brought up, Louis Whitten says, A guy named Townsend discovered that there was a type of bismuth that was repelled instead of attracting,

Speaker 31 (00:47:04):

There was a vice president of the Martin company who brought that up. He said, I read about a guy in Indiana who says the Barack Bismuth that shows anti-gravity,

Jesse Michels (00:47:14):

And where have we heard about bismuth with possible anti-gravity properties before? That's Gary Nolan, Stanford microbiologist and Nobel nominee who claims to have UFO crash parts with isotope ratios that don't occur naturally on earth. One of his pieces that we looked at together when I visited was magnesium bismuth

Speaker 34 (00:47:35):

Bismuth layers of less than the human hair supposedly picked up in the crash retrieval of an advanced aerospace vehicle. Nowhere could we find any evidence that anybody ever made one of these.

Jesse Michels (00:47:46):

And who's this Townsend guy Whitten's referring to? Whitten had to have been talking about Townsend Brown, one of the country's leading anti-gravity researchers at the time.

(00:48:02):

Yeah, and there's a guy named Townsend Brown who had a theory that if you took two charged plates and then you put something neutral between them, the neutral thing would sort of gravitate a little towards the positively charged plate, and you could basically figure out anti-gravity from the outside. Townsend Brown sort of looks like an amateurish mid-century physicist and failed inventor exploring the kooky world of anti-gravity just to end up failing and creating the intellectual property behind the ionic breeze. Air purifier, I'm not joking, but a great biography called The Man Who Mastered Gravity by Paul Shakin tells the real story he parachuted behind enemy lines into Germany in 1944 and started looking into the German UFO reverse engineering program.

David Grusch (00:48:52):

That's crazy.

Jesse Michels (00:48:53):

OSS and MI six Supers spies, bill Donovan and William Stevenson needed the allies preeminent anti-gravity scientists to investigate the notorious Foo Fighter phenomena. These were bizarre orbs that looked like intelligently controlled ball. Lightning popping up all over Germany in the early forties and messing with Allied fighter pilots. I couldn't find a ton of corroboration outside of Kin's book on this story, but here's why I think it's true. We do know for a fact that Eisenhower sent General James Doolittle to investigate Swedish Ghost rockets. These were tons of UFO sightings in Sweden and Finland in the immediate aftermath of World War ii. Curiously, Doolittle then went back to the United States just to found the Lindbergh Foundation, which researched novel aviation propulsion methods. So I wouldn't be totally surprised if Townsend Brown was tasked with the same thing with Foo Fighters.

David Grusch (00:49:51):

I mean, there's some other stuff too that I can't talk about that was way before that, that you're like, oh, shit.

Jesse Michels (00:49:57):

But what did Brown's work in anti-gravity have to do with UFOs? Well, his gravitate looked exactly like a flying saucer.

Speaker 35 (00:50:05):

He found that circular craft were better for that application than wing

Jesse Michels (00:50:09):

Craft and behind closed doors. Townsend Brown was obsessed with UFOs. He even created ncap, the National Investigations Committee on aerial phenomena when Townsend's daughter, Linda Brown and his biographer requested the scientists records from the Navy. They were at first very uncooperative, and then eventually they hinted that a lot of Brown's work was still classified. But why would Brown's work be classified if he was just a failed hack?

Speaker 36 (00:50:36):

The National Secrecy Act prevented scientists like Te Towns and Brown from commercializing or even publicizing any technology which could potentially be interpreted as having a military application.

Jesse Michels (00:50:47):

Well, we know from Kin's biography that Brown actually had meetings with the highest level officials in American atomic programs. People like Edward Teller, the father of the hydrogen bomb, and General Curtis LeMay, both deep insiders when it came to Atomic Secrets. Townsend Brown's daughter Linda even recalls that he was often taken home in a black Cadillac driven by a man that she would eventually come to know as Robert Sar Barker. And where have we heard that mysterious name before?

David Grusch (00:51:15):

Sar Barker. Somebody purportedly involved in the standup of the stuff that I uncovered. Right?

Jesse Michels (00:51:20):

But if you look deeper, things get even weirder with Brown in the Naval records that we do have. It shows that Brown was suddenly terminated by the Navy in 1942 with no explanation despite strong performance. Two weeks later, he mysteriously pops up as an employee at Martin Corporation in Burbank, just 50 miles from where Skunkworks is founded. A year later by legendary aeronautical engineer Kelly Johnson Skunkworks was created to house Martin's most advanced secretive work. Over 80% of its current projects are still classified. Is it a coincidence that Townsend Brown joined Martin Corporation a year before its founding? And guess who else funded Brown? None other than Agnew. Batson, the same anti-gravity financier who helped send physics into a dead end by popularizing quantum gravity.

Speaker 7 (00:52:08):

Okay. Okay. Townsend Brown. Remember that? I wanted to look that up. I've heard it in one of the documentaries, I believe,

Jesse Michels (00:52:14):

Because there was this golden age of relativity

Speaker 37 (00:52:16):

In the fifties, and then everything sort of went silent. And I think that's an interesting axis for you guys to look into.

Jesse Michels (00:52:22):

Okay, this is all interesting, but I know, right? We don't have a smoking gun that any of Brown's work actually got implemented by deep black aerospace.

(00:52:32):

While that's actually not true, we kind of do have evidence. In March of 1992, aviation Week broke a story about the B two stealth bomb. It used an electro kinetic effect in its wings producing a byfield brown effect. The B two surfs its own electrostatic wave, the negative cloud chasing the positive wing. This is an exact description of Townsend Brown's work, and the Byfield Brown Effect is literally named after him. And the B two was built by the merged Northrop Grumman whose major investor, Floyd Odlum was the same guy that invested in Townsend Brown's company guidance technologies in the sixties. I guess Townsend Brown isn't just the wacky fan guy anymore.

David Grusch (00:53:22):

There's just this parallel history. It's very tightly coupled to what is known publicly paperclip, et cetera. But there's this other side of it that a lot of it dealt with the U-F-O-U-I-P issue in earnest.

Jesse Michels (00:53:35):

Operation Paperclip was a secret CIA program that took more than 1600 former Nazi scientists and engineers and placed them in senior leadership roles in American military intelligence and space programs. In the wake of World War ii, Germans made more progress than anybody at the time just in aerospace. Generally, the V two flying rocket was 20, 30 years ahead,

David Grusch (00:53:59):

2 6 2 Jet Fighter,

Jesse Michels (00:54:02):

The whole Wunder Vfa arsenal, and one has to ask, why did we have such a pressing need to get Warner Von Braun and Arthur Rudolph and all these guys, the NASA Saturn program was literally a transplantation of the Nazi program. Why was there such a pressing need to get all these people in the US and maybe it had something to do with the UFO thing. Who knows? Because Warner v Braun is also a very trippy guy. Remember that story about Townsend Brown parachuting into Germany to investigate Foo Fighters and Nazi UFO programs? Well, maybe Operation Paperclip had a little more to do with UFOs than meets the eye.

David Grusch (00:54:37):

Yeah, paperclips pretty nuts when you think about it ethically and morally. You had people that were war criminals or people who were going to be tried at Nuremberg. They took off that, and then they snatched them and brought them back to the US and a lot of them became seniors at what became the CCIA A and nasa. And it's like, yeah, I don't know if that would've happened. Nowadays, I feel like we would actually not be able to turn a blind eye to the,

Jesse Michels (00:55:03):

Oh, there's no chance. Yeah. Warrior v Braun oversaw a brutal, mostly Jewish slave labor camp where tons and tons of people died, and then he went on to literally run our space program. It's pretty interesting history.

David Grusch (00:55:19):

Yeah. His boss, the German general LeBron worked for back in Germany, came over and was very high up in, I think it was nasa.

Speaker 38 (00:55:31):

After so many fitnesses have seen the So-called Flying saucers. Their existence cannot longer be denied.

David Grusch (00:55:39):

It's kind of like getting red pilled in the matrix. It's like, whoa. Holy shit. Reality is way crazier and weirder than I thought.

Ross Coulthart (00:55:48):

There's more lucky people from the program watching your channel power. Maybe I can tell you that for sure. They're like, ah, this is Jesse Guy. Keep speaking speculations. He's coming closer and closer.

David Grusch (00:56:00):

Well, it's, the thing is, if you have somebody who has a great intelligence on this, you should probably bring them in and not leave them out there speculating. Right,

Jesse Michels (00:56:10):

Exactly. If you're on the program.

Ross Coulthart (00:56:11):

Yeah.

Speaker 39 (00:56:14):

Mine's strictly the nightmare type

Speaker 40 (00:56:17):

Reports of flying saucers are nothing new. From the beginning of recorded time, men have been seen unexplainable things in the sky.

Speaker 41 (00:56:26):

Someone one of you told me the other day about this saucer def flying saucer, someone said that word before it became in movies or something, and we had a public hearing with a Yes family that was brought up. Anyone want to,

Jesse Michels (00:56:38):

Yeah. Kenneth Arnold, in 19 47, 2 months before Roswell was looking for a downed cargo plane in Mount Rainier, he saw this kind of

David Grusch (00:56:47):

Saucer skipping or

Jesse Michels (00:56:48):

Something like that. Saucer skipping it. They were in a flying V formation. But

Ross Coulthart (00:56:51):

Yeah, I think the point of that was in culture, the word flying saucer was not derived from fiction. It's the other way around. It was like our depiction of aliens and flying saucers actually were derived from people's real life stories, not the other way around. And that's always a misconception about, yes.

Jesse Michels (00:57:14):

But this is an important conversation. I don't know if you have an opinion on this, but books like American Cosmic by Day, Pesca and Passport to Magonia by Jacques Vallet, do talk about how the noble mythology of the time, whether it's the religion or media, do play somewhat of a role in sort of shading how you recollect and experience. So the classic example is Betty and Bar Hill in 1961, outer Limits was a CBS show that had played 11 days before that abduction experience, and it showed aliens with eyes that wrapped around the rims of their head, and that's exactly what they sort of described.

David Grusch (00:57:51):

Yeah. Analytical overlay. It's almost like we discussed before where you had witches sitting on the chest of people feeling paralyzed in medieval times. It's like our overlay is this classic alien kind of motif. But you look at what they said before, it's the same phenomenon basically. But people, their analytical overlay is different, so they describe it in a different way.

Jesse Michels (00:58:13):

Right. Leprechauns, fairies, elves, angels, demons. We

Ross Coulthart (00:58:17):

Just superimpose our own reality onto the thing rather

Jesse Michels (00:58:19):

Than actually, yes. It's almost like you have a meme library in your head, and then you have this higher platonic thing that's happening and you attach the closest meme that you can to it. Yeah, exactly.

David Grusch (00:58:31):

People have been seeing the same stuff. So the tic-tac of today was the flying butane tank of the 1950s, and you can find declassified Air Force OSI reports that are publicly searchable right now that talk about these flying white butane tanks and the Foo Fighter phenomenon and World War ii, and then if you were to go way back, you see stuff that's basically described the same in antiquity as well. So whether it be extraterrestrial, some other kind of origin, crypto terrestrial, some of the other stuff people, postulate, we deserve to understand truths of the universe and if we have the answer one of life's questions, what happens when we die and are we alone? If we can answer one of those, but it's kept in secret because they believe the public can't handle it or it hinders this Cold War arms race that I talked about in my first public interview. That seems pretty messed up to me.

Jesse Michels (00:59:40):

What do you think about elite interest in the topic? So the Rockefellers funded Steven Greer in the nineties and John Mack and John Mack, and they funded the Princeton Parapsychology lab. Then you have Chris Mellon who's a Mellon obviously sort of interested in the subject. I think there are letters between Lawrence Rockefeller and Hillary Clinton in the nineties where he's sort of pushing for disclosure.

David Grusch (01:00:00):

That's right, because I think was David Rockefeller also involved in that? And it was like a Camp David Meetup in

Jesse Michels (01:00:07):

The nineties. She's holding that one.

David Grusch (01:00:08):

She's

Jesse Michels (01:00:09):

Holding the book by Paul Davies. Are we alone? And there's a photo of that and it's wild.

David Grusch (01:00:13):

Certainly if you used the Rockefellers as the most prominent example, there's certainly called Old Money elite interest. And maybe it's because of their interest in frontier science or who knows. I've never talked to the Rockefellers. I have no idea what spurred that interest on, but they were certainly pushing for transparency on the issue and that's one of the most influential families in America, right?

Jesse Michels (01:00:39):

It is important in any scientific process to try to maintain the null hypothesis for as long as possible. And actually Kon who wrote a structure of scientific revolutions talks about this and he was friends with John Mack who was the head of the Harvard Psychiatry Department who tried to maintain an null hypothesis and say, I don't think this is real. He was actually a private clinician. He started to see people who would bring up these alien encounters. And I think the thing that's really important for people is just the amount of credentialed people that once they start to have an open mind and actually genuinely inquire, usually these people start to take it seriously. I have a good friend Eric Weinstein, who is a pretty well-respected public intellectual. I used to just wax poetic look, this is real. I promise you this is real. And he used to think, I think his quote is like, this is the one area where you had brain damage.

Speaker 33 (01:01:36):

You would not come off of this point. And I was convinced that you were brain damaged on this one issue. No, I really was.

Jesse Michels (01:01:44):

And now look, I think he oscillates, but he's pretty deep into the history to the point where he is bought in that this is at least something worthy of investigation.

David Grusch (01:01:56):

Yeah, I mean there's certainly some scholarship there, whether it be Jacque Vallee or Dina Paska recently and

Jesse Michels (01:02:02):

Jacque Vallee built the earliest version of the internet, ANet, or he helped Doug Engelbart and is a serious astronomer. People have serious

David Grusch (01:02:10):

Background. Yeah, I mean, I was a really hardcore intel guy working on some of the hardest, most deep black stuff, and I didn't really think much about, but then I started looking into it. I have people in tears like naval officers, pilots, et cetera, wanting to tell me what they literally saw. And either a lot of people were having psychological breaks. There's a lot of weird weather phenomena that manifest themselves in physical, tangible, metallic looking craft that are close. That seems crazy to me. And I'm like, well, these people deeply believe what they saw and I have to take them seriously. So we need to figure out what this phenomenon is.

Jesse Michels (01:02:55):

Carl Young wrote a book about flying, the book is called Flying Saucers, and he talks about flying saucers as the mandala, the Sanskrit symbol of psychic completeness, and it's this protoss psychological desire for us to have this kind of revelation of knowing everything all at once. And what was crazy about is he wrote the book and he was like, this is just kind of a symbolic psychological archetype. And then afterwards he became convinced that the phenomena was actually real. There

Speaker 42 (01:03:26):

Are things flying around up there that we haven't fully identified

Speaker 43 (01:03:28):

Yet. Roswell's a very interesting place with a lot of people that would like to know what's going on.

Speaker 44 (01:03:33):

There's footage and records of objects in the skies that we don't know exactly what

Speaker 45 (01:03:40):

They are. We saw a bright light appear in the distant western skies.

Jesse Michels (01:03:47):

Okay, at this point in the video, you might be thinking there's actually a decent amount of evidence for UFOs. So why are people so reflexively and often smugly dismissive of the topic?

Speaker 46 (01:03:58):

No to predictions, no to

Jesse Michels (01:04:00):

Aliens? Well, on the one hand, it's a fair reaction. There are a multitude of profit and attention seeking charlatans in this space. People who have absolutely no interest in pursuing truth, who embellish stories and sell snake oil for a living. Then of course you have your counterintelligence crew throwing constant smoke bombs and trying to confuse you and throw you off the trail. But maybe the most important point when discussing the insane stigma around UFOs is that some of the biggest, most prominent skeptics over the last 50 years, the people who've done more damage to open research on the topic than anyone else were you guessed it from the atomic programs, the same atomic programs Dave is saying are responsible for initially studying UFOs and then establishing their secrecy. I find it really interesting that you have some of the most prominent debunkers guys like Menzel, guys like Condon, HP Robertson who were kind of big shots who also worked on the Manhattan Project. Condon was involved in the

David Grusch (01:05:01):

Oh, I didn't realize that. Oh, interesting.

Jesse Michels (01:05:03):

He worked with Van Var Bush a lot. Oh really? Oh yeah, yeah.

(01:05:10):

Edward Eller Condon was a mid-century quantum physicist and no single person is more responsible the marginalization of UFOs than this man and his famous Condon committee. This 1966 investigation into UFOs was paid for, but supposed to be uninfluenced by the Air Force. But we now know that Condon was actually coordinating closely with Air Force officials like Colonel Robert Hitler, who had expressed clear written desire that all previous UFO research be shown as a waste of money. The Condon committee's report dealt a death blow to UFO research in the second half of the 20th century. The backstory here is that Con was very deep in the world of Atomic Secrets. Not only did he study with Robert Oppenheimer under Max born in Germany together in the twenties, he sometimes credited for helping Oppenheimer pick Los Alamos as the site for the Manhattan Project. Condon knew the area well having grown up around the corner in Alamogordo. He also recruited a lot of the projects early staff and wrote the Los Alamos primer a document all employees had to read before arrival. Then in 1946, Conden helps draft the McMahon Atomic Energy Act, which again, Dave is literally saying establishes the framework for UFO secrecy,

David Grusch (01:06:27):

The McMahon Act of 46, which was the predecessor to the Atomic Energy Act in 1954, the guys that were involved in Manhattan were overlaying the same ecosystem of secrecy in some of the same ways to protect stuff that they were protecting our nuclear secrets.

Jesse Michels (01:06:42):

So Condon was probably clued into high level UFO secrets from the start and how many people were deterred from studying UFOs because this one high prestige quantum physicist told them it was a waste of time. So was Condon just an insider who knew the truth behind UFOs and was he used by the original atomic UFO programs and by the Air Force to downplay it?

Speaker 47 (01:07:08):

Bob Lazar said he worked at a secret facility near Groom Lake where alien technology was being reverse engineered.

Jesse Michels (01:07:15):

Do you think Bob Lazar is full of shit? Bob Lazar is by far the most famous case of somebody who publicly claims to have secretly worked on reverse engineering UFOs. He outed himself in 1989 and since then has remained remarkably consistent in his story, even while detractors cite that he possibly faked his educational credentials at MIT, he ended up actually recently going on Joe Rogan and it's still like this bizarre split where so many people are like, he was right, he was right, and people are now using your testimony to say he is totally vindicated and then the verdict's still out because a lot of Ufologists or UFO people that I really respect are just pretty skeptical. So I dunno if

David Grusch (01:07:58):

You have a take. Yeah, I mean I'm certainly different than him. I came at it from a different angle. I have no information on Bob Lazar. It wasn't in the scope of my looking into it kind of activities. If he actually ever experienced what he experienced, I literally have no idea.

Jesse Michels (01:08:18):

Honestly, I go back and forth on whether Bob Lazar is telling the truth all the time. On the one hand, the guy sells illicit chemicals on a sketchy website, invested in a brothel and seems like a petty con man and criminal, but on the other hand, he definitely has some engineering prowess. He strapped a jet engine to the back of his Honda. He may have actually met with Edward Teller and he probably did do some work at Los Alamos. Finally, his story just seems so consistent. He really doesn't seem like a guy who thinks he's lying. Look,

Speaker 48 (01:08:47):

There's a lot of weird stuff about the Bob Lazar story. His story's been absolutely consistent since the late 1980s.

Jesse Michels (01:08:53):

It's a classic intelligence tactic to give people 95% correct information and 5% false information. You can track the flow of information by the uniquely false details in it, and you can easily discredit the leak. Bob Lazar would hang around some interesting characters. Guys like John Lear who flew cargo planes for the CIA in the seventies. Lear definitely seemed to spread disinformation. In other cases, he was also the son of Bill Lear, inventor of the Learjet who may have been involved in the original UFO program. My question is, did John Lear manipulate Lazar into spreading a bunch of pure disinformation and so Lazars claim that he worked on UFOs was all a complete lie or was Lazar just a disclosure test for Lear and others around him? Let's see how the public reacts to this guy. He's easy to discredit, but mostly telling the truth personally, I'm not sure what to think and would love to meet Lazar myself and ask him what he meant when he told Jacques Vallee about the liquid he was made to drink and the memory lapses it caused and about his relationship with John Lear. This is probably a small contingency out there that says us needs to maintain primacy. You have this exotic tech that we've found in the case of whatever crashes that have occurred, we don't know exactly what to do with it. Maybe we made more progress early on than we have now. We need to kind of refresh the talent pool and maybe out ourselves as a program and front run immunity through legislature to do that. What do you say to those people that

David Grusch (01:10:25):

Yeah, I mean that's something I tried to espouse on News Nation and I can't remember how they edited it or whatever, but it actually hurts national supremacy to keep it obtusely secret. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You can't even bring the right people on it, say the best theoretician and quantum chro, microdynamics just happens to smoke marijuana, so he can't get a clearance and he can't get on the program. So it actually hurts national security by not opening it up at least in an appropriate way that we're not compromising anything that somebody could use illicitly to hurt people. And that's why I use the nuclear physics example. Yeah,

Jesse Michels (01:11:07):

The program should want to out itself.

David Grusch (01:11:09):

Yeah, it's like protect what could be weaponized, but generally allow it to be studied openly, but there's absolutely no cot plan that I'm aware of to do so.

Jesse Michels (01:11:22):

Time congressman, do you think that these reverse engineering programs have made any progress or do you think Yeah,

Speaker 7 (01:11:27):

I do. I just don't think they can. They're going to scrape. If they did, we wouldn't. We would own the skies if they had it.

Jesse Michels (01:11:34):

Isn't it in their best interest to just get immunity for themselves and try to refresh the talent pool? If these people are, they're all old and it's completely compartmentalized and they haven't made and the Wilson memo,

Speaker 7 (01:11:44):

They're completely arrogant.

Jesse Michels (01:11:45):

They're arrogant,

Speaker 7 (01:11:46):

Completely arrogant, they're above the laws and they're above. Why aren't they releasing the Kennedy files? Nobody's alive 60 years, but every president, you think

Jesse Michels (01:11:54):

There's a connection between that and this?

Speaker 7 (01:11:57):

I've heard that. I would hate to speculate. I'm more just I want the surface. Just give me the stuff.

Jesse Michels (01:12:03):

Got you. Thank you.

Speaker 49 (01:12:06):

We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought by the military industrial complex.

Jesse Michels (01:12:15):

I have no idea if JFK's death had anything to do with UFOs, but there is a letter that was supposedly declassified due to a Freedom of Information Act request in 2006. It was from JFK to the director of the CIA at the time, John McCone. Its date November 12th, 1963, just 10 days before the president's assassination in the letter JFK is asking for the full data on unknowns or UFOs so we can coordinate more tightly with Russians in space and they don't mistake these UFOs as acts of American aggression or reconnaissance. I've called the guy who used the Freedom of Information Act to retrieve this document like five times now and he's not playing ball. So I have no idea if this document is real and an anonymous archivist that handles a lot of JFK's letters say that there are some anomalies in the letter that make him skeptical. So who knows? But I will say this is a very weird non-sequitur from former CIA director Mike Pompeo, when asked why the nearly 5,000 JFK files still won't be released to this day? Why'd

Jesse Michels0 (01:13:19):

You fight to keep the JFK files secret?

Jesse Michels1 (01:13:21):

These don't hold the dark secrets that everybody wants to just hold up as the BOG game. And I saw the UFO files too. We've got bigger problems.

Jesse Michels (01:13:31):

What do you say to the people who say, this is a psyop and they just want black budget funding, so the information might be right, but they just want to be able to have increased surveillance in the skies and in space or whatever

David Grusch (01:13:43):

That comes up, I think with some people that have an issue with it where you got to remember national security threat is the way to get Congress alerted and engaged. That is the operative word that Congress responds to

Jesse Michels (01:13:57):

The narrative that this could be a threat because look, to be honest with you, I think this stuff's been going on for thousands of years, and so it does frustrate me a little bit when it's like we need to be able to shoot these things down. It's like I think they're really an immediate existential threat is my

David Grusch (01:14:15):

Strong Yeah, it might not be the smartest idea to try to fire back when they're not firing at you.

Jesse Michels (01:14:20):

They'll take you out real quick if they can fly faster than light and do all these, the stuff they're doing. So yeah, it's probably not a good idea. We probably shouldn't attack the Exactly. The zookeeper.

David Grusch (01:14:31):

Yeah, exactly. Don't attack the zookeepers. I think that's probably a good idea.

Speaker 27 (01:14:34):

Stick to the facts, write it down and don't speculate what you think it is because of also your decision.

Jesse Michels (01:14:40):

The thing that frustrated me about the hearing was, look, I think Ryan Graves is awesome, and I think as his commander, David Fravor, I think they're showing a lot of courage, but it felt like their simple takeaways, we need more sensors and we need a better collection process and a more standard taxonomy, all of which are very important. But it's this kind of lazy data story that I think comes from Silicon Valley where it's like if we just get a bigger database of the UFOs, a machine learning classifier will somehow spit out the answer as to what they are.

David Grusch (01:15:12):

The only thing you're going to get from external observation, at least from the lens I look through, right, you're going to get what they call activity-based intelligence, a BI. So you'll figure out where the true hotspots are, but it's not the end all be all.

Jesse Michels (01:15:22):

If you have, you're trying to find a needle in a haystack, you don't want to add to the haystack, and I think we are over-indexed on empiric

David Grusch (01:15:31):

Oversaturated with data,

Jesse Michels (01:15:33):

Oversaturated with data in some ways, and it could be probably better standardized, so I'll give them that, but we're under-indexed on theory and to my mind we have one pretty strong theoretician and Jacques Vallee who really, if you read the Invisible College, which he wrote in 1975, that is the tip of the spear. Now, in terms of theory on UFOs, which is wild to me, Jacques Vallee might be the most preeminent UFO researcher in the world. In fact, he was Steven Spielberg's inspiration for the eccentric French scientist played by Francois Truffaut in close encounters of the third kind. Yeah,

David Grusch (01:16:11):

Nobody's really replaced him at that level and especially hypotheses that are even a little more testable.

Jesse Michels (01:16:19):

But what the average person might not know about Jacques is that he's obsessed with time travel. In fact, on the set of close encounters, he got into an argument with Steven Spielberg

Jesse Michels2 (01:16:29):

And we had a long discussion about what UFOs could be, and of course for him, the main point of the movie was entertainment, and it was appropriate for the UFOs to be extraterrestrial visitors.

Jesse Michels (01:16:43):

Jacques wanted the UFOs and the aliens in the movie to be represented in a more nuanced way and actually linked with time travel, not just space travel. I think that the extraterrestrial hypothesis is actually more farfetched. I think the idea that another species would evolutionarily converge to be bipedal to have the symmetric B Bilateral symmetry. Bilateral symmetry,

David Grusch (01:17:08):

Yeah. If we look at the aerial school event, if we believe the a hundred school children that saw bipedal hominid looking kind of NHI, then that seems pretty rare to have the same development where they're going to, it's either extra terrestrial and we're seeing bio-engineered beings that look similar to us for ease of communication and acceptance maybe, and that is almost like an avatar for the intelligence behind the ghost, behind the machine or whatever, that they were engineered specifically to look like that and it wasn't natural.

Jesse Michels (01:17:46):

Jacques heir in the UFO theory world is a guy named Mike Masters, a biological anthropologist at Montana Tech University who believes that aliens are basically just humans from the future who figured out time travel and are going back in time to visit us in the present.

Jesse Michels3 (01:18:03):

We see them less often because we're just one small blip on their geographic map of time.

Jesse Michels (01:18:09):

I like the sort of beings from the future hypothesis for a few reasons, so there's actually a concept in evolutionary biology called neoteny where your distant offspring looks like your kids currently, and if you think about a lot of these sort of close encounters of the third kind, they often are described as the beings are sort of childlike in nature. If you think about how we're actually evolving as a species, our bodies are becoming somewhat vestigial. We have an abundant amount of resources that are being distributed to us. We don't need them like our

David Grusch (01:18:42):

Morphologies are going to change,

Jesse Michels (01:18:43):

Just wither away a little bit, and then our brains are becoming actually more important. Decision making is becoming more important. If we have any sort of latent intuitive powers, that's going to be more important, and these things are supposedly a little more telepathic. Their eyes are sort of slits. You're going to have more screen time going forward, and so it does feel like that's the way that we're evolving. Aliens are weirdly non-interventionist in many of the abductions that get reported. It's almost like they have a prime directive to not say or do too much. In fact, in many cases, Mike Masters studied the abductees had to sanitize themselves shower or do chemical rinses before boarding the alien craft. This would make sense as time travel involves all sorts of issues like the grandfather paradox, you can't go back in time and kill your own grandfather otherwise, how would you exist in the present? Any little thing you do in the past might dramatically change timelines or trajectories in a way that breaks the present, so maybe this alien non interventionism points further towards the time travel theory. Many abductee also report lost time. Again, this might be explained by abductions occurring in another temporal dimension. No,

Speaker 9 (01:20:01):

No, no.

David Grusch (01:20:10):

Time's crazy because it's defined at some levels as the plunk length, right? It's the time it takes a photon of light to cross

Jesse Michels (01:20:19):

Plunk length and plunk literally after discovering the plunk length thought that that would be the best way to communicate with aliens because it's literally the shortest length. I didn't know that. Yeah, it's like the unit. He would joke about that. Yeah,

David Grusch (01:20:32):

And it's all relative, right? It's based on your reference frames, especially if you're near a gravitational source. General relativity teaches us that it'll clocks cedar speed up or slow down based on where they're near a gravitational source or not, and went over R squared over distance. It comes off, and we've proven that having cesium clocks on airplanes in the seventies, we actually showed atomic clock differences based on force of gravity. Yeah, time is really not a constant, the way we conceptualize time, it's not constant at all,

Jesse Michels (01:21:06):

And yet the felt sense of it is constant. Maybe true ontological reality time is way trippier than we realize, and maybe that speaks to this sort of alien thing, especially because people seem to see crafts and aliens when they're in specific heightened states of consciousness, and so maybe time doesn't work quite the way we think it is, but in ordinary consciousness we sort of snap it into this linear classical epistemology that we experience.

David Grusch (01:21:37):

Yeah, that's what I was trying to espouse upon when I mentioned the holographic principle. If you want to imagine 3D objects such as yourself, casting a shadow onto a 2D surface, that's the holographic principle, so you can be projected, quasi projected from higher dimensional space to lower dimensional. It's a scientific trope that you can actually cross. Originally, the whole graphic principle was created to explain how information is encoded on an event horizon in a black hole, but maybe that's what we're seeing is we're seeing higher dimensional stuff casting shadow into our space, just like how we cast a shadow on a two dimensional surface, which is the sidewalk, right? Well, if you were on flatland, you would've no idea that this crazy 3D monster was out there, but all you're seeing is the shadow and it's called quasi projection, and maybe some of the UAPs are not even, they're here, but they're not actually from out there.

Jesse Michels4 (01:22:28):

I cannot show you a tesseract because, and you are trapped in three dimensions, but what I can show you is the shadow in three dimensions of a four dimensional hypercube or tesseract. This is it.

Jesse Michels (01:22:43):

If it exists outside of four D Timespace or whatever, say this is you have a 2D universe and this is a 3D object. If it intersects, you're just going to see a sliver of it, so you'll just see a disc. That would make sense I think in two ways. One is that a lot of people that seem to see crafts and sometimes go inside of them, the inside is bigger than the outside, so Jacques Vallee describes a woman in San Jose seeing this flying saucer. She walks in, she's in a movie theater. All of a sudden it

Speaker 18 (01:23:15):

Was one case in good old San Jose, a woman had seen something over her house. It was a big disc. I say, well, when you went inside, you said there was this being and the being took you on a staircase. I say, where did the staircase go? Well, the staircase went up the side of this big round room. I say, how would you compare it like a movie house, like an PHI theater? I said, that's bigger than your house. Why is the inside bigger than the outside?

Jesse Michels (01:23:51):

And so this is a constant sort of, again, if we're looking for patterns and that's a good way to kind of theorize that would make sense if it's this shadow casting sort thing,

David Grusch (01:24:01):

Well, almost that almost sounds like a physical translation from lower to higher dimensional space. That seems to be what's going on there, and I don't know if we have a good framework on how to smoothly do something like that. I don't even know.

Jesse Michels5 (01:24:20):

I think if anyone would know about aliens on Earth, it would probably be me.

Jesse Michels (01:24:24):

He's topping on the alien bandwagon as of the last two days, by the way. Well, he did, and then he goes, somebody should win Psyop of the Year award or something, so I don't know. It's like, what do you think, man? What's, what's your take? He was just

Ross Coulthart (01:24:35):

Riding the Fairwood first tweet of like, I'm not going to say the aliens, but

David Grusch (01:24:41):

Yeah, I'm not sure what's going on

Jesse Michels (01:24:43):

With him. I think he's probably a little pissed. He is using chemical propulsion. Yeah, exactly. Combustion based propulsion. Well,

David Grusch (01:24:48):

We need Howard Hughes of our generation to get access to the good stuff.

Jesse Michels (01:24:54):

I've always found it fascinating that America's real life Ironman, its most impressive industrialist seems to be so sure of the fact that we're in a simulation.

Jesse Michels5 (01:25:03):

The odds that we're in base reality is one in billions,

Jesse Michels (01:25:08):

But doesn't like entertaining any possible sightings of aliens. If we're in a simulation, why aren't you doing any speculating as to who simulated us?

Jesse Michels5 (01:25:16):

I mean, if they show up, I'm like, great. Okay. Now this isn't your information.

Jesse Michels (01:25:20):

The conventional story, especially after the Copernican revolution is that the earth is a lucky accident that allows for life. You do have sort of weird aspects of reality like the philanthropic principle, the idea of plank's constant was slightly different or hydrogen bonded with oxygen in a different way that didn't form these perfect crystal structures. Ice wouldn't float above water, usually solid sink below liquids, and we wouldn't have a habitable earth, and so you have all these sort of things in physics that if there were slightly different, we wouldn't have this sort of Goldilocks perfect habitable zone.

David Grusch (01:25:54):

Oh yeah. I mean earth's very finely tuned, right? The temperature gradient is just enough. Is

Jesse Michels (01:25:58):

That a coincidence or did aliens set this up? I don't know. You could even think Heisenberg's uncertainty principle where you can't measure position and momentum at the same time as like a computational caching function,

David Grusch (01:26:10):

Something. Oh, interesting. Yeah. You

Jesse Michels (01:26:11):

Can't compute everything like

David Grusch (01:26:13):

Computer. Your ram's not that good,

Jesse Michels (01:26:20):

And maybe if we are in a simulation, our perceptive capabilities were artificially limited by the simulators. We only see between 400 and 700 nanometers of the electromagnetic wave spectrum. We only hear certain frequencies. That's why dog whistles are inaudible to humans. If we really wanted to create safe artificial general intelligence, we might initially experiment with artificial life so limited in its perception that it doesn't even know we exist, so it definitely can't hurt us forward-looking, infrared caught the famous tic-tac video in 2004. What if we had infrared sensors or for that matter, gravity wave detectors in our pockets? How many more sightings would we have? That explains why UFOs are disproportionately picked up by military bases. It's the robust multisensory detection that you find on those bases that makes all the difference.

Jesse Michels6 (01:27:13):

There is no understanding of alien visits that has them only visit restricted navy airspace to be picked up by

David Grusch (01:27:23):

Pilots. That's an observer and collection bias issue where you have all the eyeballs and all the sensors in those areas. Sure. That's a good point. If you were to do an activity based intelligence across the globe, if we actually can have an open and honest kind of collection system, yeah, I think we'd probably see some hotspots that don't even make any sense. I don't like throwing shade, but Neil Mcgras Tyson, right? Oh yeah. He's made up his mind. I've read his tweets and I'm like, dude, do you have a PhD in physics? Where's your curiosity? I can't even believe.

Jesse Michels7 (01:27:53):

There's no evidence that would convince an authentic skeptic.

David Grusch (01:27:56):

I have credentials too, and I'm happy to go toe to toe with you. Yeah, if he wants to debate me, I'd be fine with that. Let's do it.

(01:28:07):

When I started studying physics in college and I became an Intel guy, I got briefed a lot of programs. I figured, oh, I would know if it's a thing, and I kind of ascribed to the Rico Fermi thing where wouldn't it be obvious when they'd just be flying around and they wouldn't care and they would just land and say hello? But that's like an overly simplistic thought. Humanistic too. Very humanistic. Yeah, humanistic. You're assuming that they have the same kind of intent as us. You assume they operate in the electromagnetic spectrum that we can observe normally, and then also you're assuming that they would want this kind of open obvious kind of interaction and are not doing cover concealment techniques where they're obfuscating their activity. Maybe they're observing us for some purpose or what if von Neuman probes,

Jesse Michels (01:29:02):

Right? Do you guys know von Neuman probes? No. Von Neuman replicators,

David Grusch (01:29:06):

Which is like self-replicating tech that's disposable in nature. If you're trying to send something out simple and engineered to explore the cosmos,

Jesse Michels (01:29:16):

And there's always a question of what was the first self-replicating organism? I think the big mystery is how does chemistry turn into biology, and we have these people that say, oh, it was just this primordial soup and you had all these chemicals floating around and they've done experiments like this and never been able to recreate life through those experiments, and it's a really open question. How does life form? I think it's probably much more trippy and interesting than just a chemical soup. Just the chemicals happen to bond in a certain way. It's a happy accident.

Jesse Michels8 (01:29:49):

Craig's view was that DNA could not have emerged accidentally from the primeval soup on this planet in just a hundred million years. It needed much longer. He still bought into the primeval soup idea, but not on this planet. What he came down to was that there must've been some other planet somewhere else where a primeval soup had existed, and there had been enough time for DNA to emerge from the accidental bumping together of molecules. That's by the way, something I'm a bit skeptical of anywhere.

Jesse Michels (01:30:19):

There was actually a French kind of evolutionary theorist and philosopher named Berg Song. He thought the sun was somehow essential to evolution. If you think about

David Grusch (01:30:30):

It, that makes sense. It's mutations.

Jesse Michels (01:30:32):

You need mutation. You need genetic mutations for evolution

David Grusch (01:30:35):

To occur. It's a radiological. It's at least putting out ultraviolet, so totally.

Jesse Michels (01:30:40):

Why are we worried about a Japanese nuclear spill? What happened at Fukushima and Chernobyl, you had an acceleration of evolution due to radiation. Maybe the sun is an extremely sophisticated nuclear fusion reactor that powers the earth and the earth's electromagnetic field was simulated to support life. Astronauts often have to take Schumann resonance machines up with them to space to mimic the electromagnetic field of the earth, otherwise their bodies often malfunction. If you put a frog embryo in a faraday cage, it does not develop normally, and then you can change the cell gradient of a tadpole where you've severed the arm of the tadpole to the cell gradients of the head cells and you can grow a chimeric two-headed tadpole, and so there's something around the electromagnetic field that is orthogonal and maybe even upstream of DNA in terms of morphology.

David Grusch (01:31:41):

Yeah, because done experiments too with plant growth around high powerful wifi routers and that actually they don't grow, right? No, it's pretty. So I kind of concerning. I think about the wifi in my house. I'm like, oh man, am I cooking myself slowly or something?

Ross Coulthart (01:32:02):

Dave ran this morning and a Lama race

Speaker 41 (01:32:06):

Like this, what's the name of the llama? Playboy.

David Grusch (01:32:13):

Playboy.

Speaker 41 (01:32:14):

I think the name of the Lama was, boy

Speaker 9 (01:32:18):

Holy, you

Speaker 41 (01:32:26):

Recognize me. This is stuff on a TV represent.

Ross Coulthart (01:32:31):

Over the past days you shared with us that you were diagnosed to be on the autism spectrum. How has this served you in your life, in your career, and how has it hindered you?

David Grusch (01:32:44):

Yeah, I mean, I didn't know that I was autistic until I was in my early thirties, so I mean it served me well in the government. I was super good at doing Intel and Dave, we want you to target this facility. You have six months, figure out everything, and of course I do, and that was very good, but I think especially if you're trying to maintain relationships and stuff and how to read people's emotions and how to show your own emotions, especially if you're deeper in the spectrum when you get Asperger's and that kind of stuff, you don't know how to even present your emotions in a way to a partner or a spouse or whatever. He would

Jesse Michels9 (01:33:29):

Come home and tell me general stuff and I'd be like, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, there's probably aliens that makes sense.

Jesse Michels (01:33:39):

Unfortunately, Dave can't talk about the backlash he's received from inside the government because of an ongoing investigation, but a good example of a pretty despicable marginalization attempt from the outside was an article written a few weeks after the hearing by the Intercept. The article describes Dave's hospitalization back in 2018, an episode of alcohol consumption and suicidal ideation. That led to a 9 1 1 call, but the article failed to mention any of the factors that led to this incident.

David Grusch (01:34:07):

Yeah, definitely experienced some really nuts stuff.

Jesse Michels (01:34:10):

Not only has Dave been very open with us and other media about his PTSD from combat experience and having a close friend die while on duty,

David Grusch (01:34:19):

I had a friend of mine that died doing the same stuff. I was six months later going to the same locations.

Jesse Michels (01:34:25):

He's also discussed all of the suffering that's resulted from that experience and the proactive techniques he's used to heal from that trauma,

David Grusch (01:34:32):

So like EMDR therapy, HRV, breath work, all that stuff. I was not a believer, but holy at least it worked for me and I highly recommend anybody that has issues with that maybe try some of that stuff. It seems kind of non-traditional, but it was very valuable

Jesse Michels (01:34:50):

Critiquing the substance of Dave's argument saying that they're high level or secondhand, that's all within the public and media's right, but this was a clear, cheap shot, a low blow, and one that I suspect was probably driven by a political ulterior motive, concealing the truth.

Jesse Michels9 (01:35:16):

People send me memes or tiktoks. I'm like, yep, that's mine.

Ross Coulthart (01:35:25):

In your time in the Navy, have you ever seen something that you couldn't explain or something

Speaker 60 (01:35:30):

That we have a cabin up in the mountains and our former neighbor, he was so interested in UFOs and he moved to Roswell, New Mexico because he wanted to be close. He claimed he did see something.

Ross Coulthart (01:35:50):

Another question that I always get is why is it always an American thing? Why is this always happening in America?

David Grusch (01:35:56):

The phenomenon's global? A hundred percent. I mean, you look at aerial schools, Russians have reported stuff. The Chinese have what they call the journal UFO research, which is a published periodical in the People's Republic of China, and you got to remember the CCP does not allow fringe beliefs and it's basically tacitly endorsed and allowed to since I think the late nineties, I want to say.

Jesse Michels (01:36:24):

Do you think the three body problem kind of the dark forest analogy of aliens was maybe sort of a form of soft disclosure from the Chinese government?

David Grusch (01:36:33):

Yeah, I mean, I don't know for sure, but they've allowed this sci-fi series to be published by this Chinese author. That's pretty trippy, really trippy, and I don't know. Maybe that's a way for the Chinese government to acclimatize the populace. Do note in the South China morning post, I want to say it was June, 2021, and they had an article like, oh yeah, we have a UP task force too. We're using A IML to look at UAP sightings, and that's really been their own overt messaging on UAP, at least to an English speaking kind of audience that, oh, yeah, we understand that's a problem. We have a task force too.

Jesse Michels (01:37:08):

Isn't what's happening in Ukraine kind of an argument against the practical application of these technologies because if either side wanted it, it kind of definitively win, and you had this fast might travel thing,

David Grusch (01:37:20):

Well, you'd have to be willing to reveal your ace in the hole tech. Once you use it, then you burn it and then now everybody knows. Gotcha.

Jesse Michels (01:37:29):

Perhaps this is a good time to talk about the frame of the public debate on UFOs, which is frustratingly stupid and simplistic. It's frozen between a sensationalist, indiscriminate belief in everything and smug, elitist dismissiveness. The whole conversation is basically, is this a psyop or is this real? The answer is it's both. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, if the phenomena is real, there are more likely to be PSYOPs surrounding it and those PSYOPs are going to be more effective if the phenomena is real, and yeah. If there are vehicles in the sky running circles around American state-of-the-art fighter jets, do you not think the government would try to get in front of that narrative and at times use it for its own purposes? We know the Air Force tried to marginalize UFOs with Blue Book, but later in 1979, the Air Force drove a man crazy by playing up his belief in aliens, Paul. Sure. Are you familiar with him?

David Grusch (01:38:25):

I've heard about it, yeah.

Jesse Michels (01:38:27):

He saw some strange craft activity and didn't know what it was, and Richard Doty, who is an Air Force disin info guy, was kind of assigned to screw him up mentally,

(01:38:42):

So we know UFOs are part psyop. That's old news. The real question is, is this only a syop? Because if it is, it cuts against everything we know about our pretty dysfunctional government. It's basically the best psyop of all time. It runs across government agencies that don't always get along. Presidents on both sides of the aisle, fighter pilots and radar operators who adhere to a culture of humility and of course hundreds of thousands if not millions of average civilians. The null hypothesis that this is purely a psyop is almost harder to defend than just admitting the existence of non-human intelligence. But you shouldn't blindly trust me or Dave Gush for that matter. Do your own research. I mean, you have people like Stephen Pinker who are like, this is the best we've ever had it. I think that's bss, so maybe violence is at an all time low, but it's because we have nukes now, so any war is mutually assured destruction, and so if there's a world beyond the material world and that can somehow be accessed or communicated with in any possible way, it might be sort of a crazy Hail Mary, but you got to throw the hail Mary now you can't run the ball.

Speaker 41 (01:40:00):

Is there something you would like to say directly to someone

Jesse Michels (01:40:02):

To on the program?

David Grusch (01:40:03):

Yeah. I know if you're on the program, I understand empathetically the risks, what you put yourself through. We're trying to create a time where we can get this out there, recruit better people, hopefully protect those who want to go forward. If you want to go forward, there is a legal process either through PPD 19 if it's an Intel thing, there's other inspector generals. You do have the right to go directly to Congress, and then of course some of the senior leaders that have known about this stuff, and I understand they were in positions where they had to make decisions just like anybody else, and they're not the top of the pyramid. I think the time is right to cement maybe your final legacy and to help out, even though I know there'll be some admittance of maybe decisions you've made that you wish in the past maybe you didn't make, but I think it's time to move forward and I think we'll be stronger as a nation and as a world. I think it's going to enhance national security, enhance peer competition policing so that people aren't doing things unethical and immoral. If everything's in secret, everybody can get away with things that might be illegal, unethical, immoral, and hold our adversaries accountable publicly. If this is a thing that we acknowledge and once again, nuclear physics broadly studied nuclear weapons development, that's classified, and that's all I have to say. Just come on. Do you

Jesse Michels (01:41:34):

Think in some ways UFOs are like a Rorschach test and the way I mean that is that you could use them as an auspice to sort of clamp down and create one world government or something and create extra surveillance and say, this is this big threat and we're not at the top of the food chain and they're apex predators and we've got to be careful. Watch your step. Or they could be incredibly libertarian because it's like actually terrestrial governments aren't as powerful maybe as we thought that they were, and I think it could go in either direction

David Grusch (01:42:10):

Or it's just like they're just simply waiting until we generally care about that. We look at it, we're like, huh, that's interesting, and then we go about our day and then we don't even integrate the phenomenon into our lives.

Jesse Michels (01:42:29):

In terms of people's reaction to this, look, I'm angry about possible white collar crime, especially people possibly being driven crazy or to their death. That's horrible, and then I also think on some level, people are too focused on government recrimination. It is

David Grusch (01:42:48):

Time for transparency, transparency, transparency,

Jesse Michels (01:42:51):

Transparency, and not on the fact that this is the nature of reality. These things might make you a biblical literalist. Ezekiel,

David Grusch (01:42:59):

Stop the wheel baby first

Ross Coulthart (01:43:00):

Chapter. I'm with you. Do you believe that the phenomenon is the next big great religion in the world?

Jesse Michels (01:43:07):

Yeah. Basically

David Grusch (01:43:08):

The phenomenon has probably already influenced all the other religions already, so it's just maybe we're looking at the source code.

Jesse Michels (01:43:14):

Source code, yeah. If youre looking at the source code,

David Grusch (01:43:15):

We're at the graphic user interface level. It's like IP header, and we're getting finally getting into the information flow.

Jesse Michels (01:43:24):

In her book, American Cosmic Diana Pesca makes the pretty convincing case that many seemingly divine contact experiences in the past could have actually been what we now call UFO experiences. Just take the case of St. Francis of Assisi, his close confidant brother Leo documents the experience describing sound and fury creating atmospheric sparks, a spinning disc telepathic communication between Francis and the disc, and then Francis is wounded by rays of light. Francis interprets these hand wounds as the stigmata of Christ, but Sulca speculates that Maybe this was just radiation damage from a UFO experience.

David Grusch (01:44:06):

I was reasonably religious, but nothing like crazy kind of average studied physics. I became kind of agnostic. I was like, eh, I don't know about all this kind of woowoo stuff that the church espouses and stuff, and then oddly enough, I've kind of come full circle in some sense where there is this higher sentience. There seems to be, I think we're created beings in some manner, whether it be some Pam Speria from little G gods or Big G God. I think about the people, the journey I had and the most random people that I've known that were placed in my life 14 years ago, shut the door in my office at NGA. Were like, look, dude, and they started telling me all this stuff that I was, and they brought these crazy intel reports. I guess I was kind of the right guy that was chosen to do this thing, I guess so yeah, I've come full circle and my belief system,

Jesse Michels (01:45:05):

For me it's inspiring. It's like this idea that it's just eat, drink and be merry or whatever. You live, you pay taxes, you work a job and then you die. Yeah. That's

David Grusch (01:45:15):

Meaning of life and just like the Vatican Observatory saying, yeah, we're cool with other sentient life that shows God paints a broad brush and that's pretty cool. Catholic church is very accepting on that and it just shows God's providence and God's creative powers if there's actually other interesting sentient besides us. Totally. It's like, what was it in the movie contact? It's a total waste of space if it's just us, right? It's like the famous line in the movie. Carl Sagan was a great communicator, probably one of the best. Yeah.

Jesse Michels (01:45:47):

He also met a lot with Kit Green towards the end of his career. He was a ct, a guy very into UFOs. Yeah.

David Grusch (01:45:52):

You were telling me that. I didn't know that. You can count

Jesse Michels (01:45:55):

On Jesse to tell you these

David Grusch (01:45:57):

Weird facts. Yeah. I thought I had use a lot of useless knowledge. This guy's like, it's not useless, but it's pretty

Jesse Michels (01:46:04):

Intense. It's pretty useless until now.

David Grusch (01:46:09):

This is like the mega interview. We're covering every potential trippy slash esoteric slash conspiratorial thing at once, and I'm,

Jesse Michels (01:46:19):

This justifies me being paranoid in my room reading about weird shit and being criticized by friends and colleagues for years. Yeah.

David Grusch (01:46:29):

This is more you educating me than me saying anything for some interview or whatever right now, so it's kind of cool. Yeah. I've always learned something when I'm talking to you and sometimes I'm hanging up the phone and calling me and I'm like, I don't know about this guy.

Jesse Michels (01:46:43):

He's going crazy.

David Grusch (01:46:44):

I think he's really going deep where I think he's losing his grip. That was, yeah, but

Jesse Michels (01:46:53):

Oh my God,

David Grusch (01:46:54):

That was a crazy hummingbird.

Jesse Michels (01:46:55):

That was a crazy hummingbird. Maybe it was DARPA spy cam or something. Oh man, that's a good sign, bro. It's it my mind versus here, it brings science and religion together in a way that these two things have been sort of cleaved or bifurcated since the enlightenment. This could possibly reconcile those two things, which would be absolutely amazing, where you could read the Bible and you could say some of this stuff could actually happen in the context of

David Grusch (01:47:22):

Aliens like panspermia creationism. This might actually prove certain religious texts and what they've espoused with little g gods, and at least for me spiritually, at least my belief system, it's certainly opened my eyes to the universe is not clockwork. Everything we see in our day-to-day life is not everything that exists, and if there's truly other sentient intelligences, I mean, it just inspires my curiosity. I'd like to know what their belief systems are and how maybe we'll find out that that matches with ours and it actually bolsters our,

Jesse Michels (01:48:00):

Maybe we can ascend to your video in the Berkshires. You want to repeat it Nomar?

Ross Coulthart (01:48:06):

Yeah. I mean the ending result was, is the universe ignoring us

Speaker 61 (01:48:12):

Because we're not at their level yet? We haven't reached that height of awareness. Is the society as a people,

Ross Coulthart (01:48:19):

Is this an opportunity for us to examine ourselves, to figure out why we have not been a part of this bigger ecosystem?

David Grusch (01:48:27):

Interesting friend visiting us as well, alien

Jesse Michels (01:48:30):

Visiting, non-human intelligence, non-human intelligence. We have evidence of non-human intelligence.

Ross Coulthart (01:48:38):

One of the most powerful witness testimonies that I've seen in all the interviews that I've consumed over the past three years was one of the girls from the aerial school case when Dr. John Mack was interviewing her and he's trying to understand how the telepathy was working, and then she goes out of nowhere. I think in space there's no love, but down here there is.

David Grusch (01:48:59):

Well, that's the near death experiences like a proof of heaven by Ebon Alexander medical doctor. Yeah. He has a very interesting scientific outlook of his near death, and that was this overarching loving energy, something when he ascended to this, it sounded like another dimensional plane, if you will. He had basically a fasciitis of the brain where it was like he was probably going to be brain dead if he even survived, but he miraculously came back and he was totally fine, but all this knowledge and all this stuff he experienced,

Jesse Michels (01:49:36):

That's a super common thing in alien abduction experiences, whether it's the aerial school or commander George Hoover of the Navy actually talked about this. Aliens often come down. They say, you don't know how powerful you are. You don't know how amazing and powerful you are, and in a lot of mystery rituals like the Ellucian mystery rituals and others, you experience sort of noesis or it's often accompanied by kind of a near-death experience or something, but you experience knowledge of your primordial soul and you get this sort of loving state and then you come back down and there is this sort of Allah Jesus translation function issue where he was known to speak in riddles and mysteries. There's a great book actually called Flatland by Sir Edwin Abbott. Yeah,

David Grusch (01:50:24):

That's super classic

Jesse Michels (01:50:25):

In the late 19th century where it's like if you were a 3D person speaking to people in flatland on a 2D plane or Plato's cave, you see the light, you come down, you can't really tell people, and then you get persecuted. Well,

David Grusch (01:50:39):

Yeah. He said he had this knowledge. He understood it when he was in that plane, but when he came back and was trying to verbalize it and write it down, he could not find the human words to translate it. It's like almost like our symbol rate is too slow to communicate the information effectively.

Jesse Michels (01:51:06):

We're living in a very interesting time. I'm excited to see where it goes and you're playing a massive part in it, so I appreciate everything. Appreciate it. Your service, just on a fundamental level, and you're a real example of a modern Mr. Smith goes to Washington and you're not doing it in this sort of totally reckless wrecking ball sort of way. You're going through the proper processes and doing things legally, but also you have agency and you're doing it strategically time after time Again. People just get a neutered when they're in government and you are doing a big thing, so it's cool for young people to see. Thank you, Dave. Thank you for everything, man.

David Grusch (01:51:53):

Yeah,

Jesse Michels (01:51:54):

See you. We talked about a lot of shit.

Speaker 62 (01:51:59):

Ladies and gentlemen, Neil Armstrong.

Speaker 63 (01:52:03):

Today we have with us a group of students among America's Best. There are great ideas, undiscovered breakthroughs available to those who can remove one of truth's, protective layers.