2019-04-30 - Open Minds UFO Radio "Dr. Eric Davis - Investigating and Experiencing the Paranormal"

Source Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeyBTChcTe4

Speaker 1 (00:00:55):

Hello

Speaker 4 (00:00:56):

And welcome to Open Mind UFO Radio. My name is Alejandro Rojas and I am here with Martin Spectacular Willis.

Speaker 3 (00:01:08):

Oh, that's a spectacular thing to say. And at first I thought you were having some type of attitude, but then I realized it was almost like glee.

Speaker 4 (00:01:17):

Yeah, it's more glee ish than attitude ish. It's more of fun silliness, which is kind of my thing.

Speaker 3 (00:01:25):

No one really uses the word glee anymore. Yeah,

Speaker 4 (00:01:28):

I know. After the TV show went away, everybody kind of shied away from that.

Speaker 3 (00:01:31):

Yeah, that's what it is. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:01:34):

But let's get into it. So this is open mind, GFO Radio, where we cover credible UFO news and information. We take a journalistic view to bring you substantiated information, not just speculation. We do speculate here and there, but unfortunately most of this field is mostly speculation. So I like to bring to you the hard hitting news what's going on. So the first part of the show is the news. We'll cover the news stories of the week, however, especially with the great guests that we have and the interest in the guests that we have today. You may want to skip the first 25 minutes and go straight to the interview. That is just fine, especially if you're listening to this 10 years from now and he'll want to just get to the interview. That is just fine. So you can do that. And I do say that because some people are like, man, they just talk about the news at the beginning.

(00:02:27):

I want to hear this from the guest. Well, that's fine. Skip ahead. But I do want to take a minute, and my guest is so important this week, and some of you may not know who he is, but I'm going to read his bio. So please. Sorry Martin, this is going to take just a minute, but you'll understand because he's so important. His name is Dr. Eric Davis. Why is he so important? Well, there's probably two scientists in particular I would say, who are really important right now, and that is Dr. Davis and his boss at Earth Tech, Dr. Hal Puthoff, because they both work for this Pentagon program. So we got these rds, these reports essentially that the Pentagon asked these scientists to write about these projects with that were actually, even though they're technology based, these guys have written these things based on the paranormal, and we'll get into that in this interview.

(00:03:25):

But let me read this bio. Eric Davis is the Chief Science Officer of Earth Tech International and the Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin. Dr. Davis research specializations include breakthrough propulsion, physics for interstellar flight, interstellar flight science, beamed energy propulsion, advanced space, nuclear power and propulsion, directed energy, weapons, future and transformational technology general, relatively tivity theory, quantum field theory, quantum gravity theories, experimental quantum optics, and Seti search for extraterrestrial intelligence, xeno archeology. We actually had someone on to talk about xeno archeology before, but Dr. Davis's research activities include megawatt class laser propulsion physics systems, designing and performance metrics and mission applications for the US Air Force Laser light craft program, quantum optics tomography experiments to measure negative vacuum energy studies on the multi-layered quantum vacuum structure and its applications, general relativistic time machines and causality, super lumal photons in curved space time gravis stars and black holes and quantum entanglement, teleportation and non-locality studies in traversable wormhole and warp drive space times were faster than light propulsion and feasibility studies on laser inertial confinement, inertial electrostatic confinement Z pinch and dense plasma focused fusion concepts for space propulsion, much like the stuff that you study, right, Martin?

Speaker 3 (00:05:12):

Yeah, you lost me way ahead of, what was it? Invincible wormhole.

Speaker 4 (00:05:19):

I think you're way off there, but I would be too,

Speaker 3 (00:05:21):

I think you lost me back at vacuum or something.

Speaker 4 (00:05:23):

He currently serve as an adjunct professor in the early universe, cosmology and Strings Group at the Center for Astrophysics Space Physics and Engineering Research at Baylor University in Waco, Texas. He earned his PhD in astrophysics from the University of Arizona in 91 the year I graduated from high school. Dr. Davis is a fellow of the British Interplanetary Society Associate Fellow of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics and a member of the New York Academy of Sciences Directed Energy Professional Society, the American Astronomical Society, and the Association of Former Intelligence Officers. So a lot of stuff, and the reason I bring all this stuff is because you can hear this is mainstream science. These are credible organizations he's associated with, but what we're going to be talking about is wild and crazy stuff. So to hear this wild stuff we're talking to 'em about with UFOs and paranormal and voices coming out of nowhere related to the Skin Walker Ranch paranormal stuff. That's why I wanted to bring up the background. So in an interview I did, in fact, Martin with John Alexander. Alexander had talked about how Eric Davis was somehow a magnet for all the paranormal stuff going on at Walker Ranch. And so we talk about that in this interview.

Speaker 3 (00:06:51):

Wow. Yeah, I can see where the background like that. Holy mackerel. That is something else. And I saw that he had an interest in UFOs way back. There's an old article I just read why he was talking about why the science community won't take UFOs seriously back in 2013. So he does light travel science and research.

Speaker 4 (00:07:18):

I mean space time, warping time travel, all of this sort of stuff. So yeah, so when they're talking about to the stars who works with Stech and Dr. Davis in developing these technologies, and we do discuss this, that they're essentially getting some clues about how the technology works from just observations of UFOs. This is something they're really doing that they really think they can do, and they've got these people, the right people to do it.

Speaker 3 (00:07:49):

Right. Amazing.

Speaker 4 (00:07:51):

And we'll talk to Dr. Eric Davis about this idea, this idea, and I'm sure you've heard it out there, and I'd love to hear your point of view that all of this to the stars and this Pentagon project, all of this coming out is part of a disclosure effort where the government or some kind of secret keepers are trying to slowly release information. But Elizondo and the others we've talked to say that's not the case at all. And if you follow the history of how this is all happened, Tom DeLong does not work for the government. He did this all on his own. He was able to then entice Elizondo to join his program, but Elizondo retired. He wasn't planning on getting this information out, so he decided this on his own. Otherwise, guys like Eric Davis and Hal Poff who have worked on all of this stuff with Biglow and the Pentagon, they've been doing this for literally decades. You heard for decades they've been working on UFOs and paranormal and trying to get the mainstream to pay attention. So this isn't something new. This isn't something where some secret hand came to them and said, oh, we're going to get you to do this, this, and this. No, this is something they've been fighting for decades and finally they're getting more respect and more attention than ever. And we'll get into that when we get into the news, but we'll talk to Dr. Davis about his thoughts regarding all that as well.

Speaker 3 (00:09:22):

Wow. Sounds like a fantastic guest. I don't know why he's been off my radar for my show. I mean, I definitely would love to have someone like that.

Speaker 4 (00:09:30):

Yeah, I don't know what your deal is, dude. I don't

Speaker 3 (00:09:32):

Know either. It's a dark board.

Speaker 4 (00:09:35):

Yeah. Well, let's get into the news. How buddy?

Speaker 3 (00:09:38):

Well, yeah, we had a fantastic week for news all starting from a political political report actually right after my show. You text me a link back on Tuesday. It came out last Tuesday.

Speaker 4 (00:09:52):

Isn't that crazy? I know both of our shows are on Tuesday and this news came out. I had uploaded my show and I'm sure your show was already done. So our shows were wrapped up and then boom, and then this news comes out,

Speaker 3 (00:10:06):

This came out, let's see, that came out at right six minutes after my show started. I'm looking at the timestamp. It's

Speaker 4 (00:10:15):

So funny. Yeah, that sounds right. I got done doing the news with you and then I found the story. And then of course that was all the rest of my day.

Speaker 3 (00:10:24):

And from this one story, I'll talk about it in a second. All kinds of things have spawned off articles everywhere. I guess you would call this going viral in a way. And of course just the title alone, you can see why US Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs. That's the political headline. And some people right away were arguing, well, they're talking about things unidentified aircraft UFOs has nothing to do with it. I saw that argument right away. But it doesn't really say anything that makes that explainable one way or the other as far as I'm concerned. And many people are. That's been the basis of a lot of conversations. And other, for instance, the Washington Post has written a great story story about why, how angry pilots got the Navy to stop dismissing UFO sightings. I love that one. And so just pick one story, but let's talk about political first. I'm wondering you, since you have done a lot of research on this since it came out, why is it them that broke the story and how was it them? Do you know about that?

Speaker 4 (00:11:48):

You know what, I don't know for sure. However, the author, Brian has been interested in this topic for a while. So when the December, 2017 story came out that broke the Pentagon UFO program, AIP story, Brian Bender had a story out within the hour. So he must have been working on this. He kind of caught onto this as well. However, I wrote a blog called Why the Navy Taking U Ffo Seriously Matters. And in that blog, I also linked to another story that Brian Bender had out where soon after the December news had come out, he held because he's the C like space editor for Politico, which was kind of a new thing they were doing. They had a bit of a conference with some of the space people involved with space. So they had people from the committees for Armed Services or the committees for Science and Space.

(00:12:47):

They also had some of the National Space Council people available at this event. And he asked a couple of these people, a couple of actual house reps that were on the space committee, they said, and one of the people on the National Space Council, and he asked them, what do you think of this news lately with the UFOs? And actually one of them in the space committee said, you know what? I found this really interesting. And I even went to the head of our committee and said, Hey, shouldn't we have hearings on this? So they were all taking it all very seriously, which was I think really eyeopening and important what he did there. So he's obviously had his hand on the pulse of what's going on here. So somehow he got this information first, and it's a great story because he talks about aip.

(00:13:38):

He talked to Chris Mellon who's part of To the Stars, you've had him on the show, really important person related to all of this. And he brought in, brought the correlations because, and in fact, let me read the full statement. I got a copy of the full statement from someone who sent it to me and he has it in, he's done PR for different government organizations and was able to get it. But this is from the Deputy Chief of Naval Operations. The political story had pieces of this statement in there, but not the whole thing. But here is their full statement. There have been a number of reports of unauthorized and or unidentified aircraft entering various military controlled ranges and designated airspace in recent years for safety and security concerns. The Navy and the US Air Force take these reports very seriously and investigate each and every report.

(00:14:33):

As part of this effort, the Navy is updating and formalizing the process by which reports of any such suspected incursions can be made to the cognizant authorities. A new message to the fleet that will detail the steps for reporting is in draft. In response to requests for information from congressional members and staff, Navy officials have provided a series of briefings by senior naval intelligence officials as well as aviators who reported hazard to aviation safety. So of course they say they take these things seriously. We know from the past that they've blown us off. So they've lied to us to be quite frank. I mean, unfortunately we can't put it any other way, especially when it comes to the Air Force. I know this, and that's the gist of my story is that I've been writing about this and investigating and doing everything for decades now.

(00:15:31):

And every time you go to the Air Force, they say, sorry, we don't have any interest. And they send you to that patent statement that says, oh, we closed our UFO interest back in 1969 at the end of Project Blue Book because of the condo report. So now in this Navy statement, they say, oh, we take this seriously and we've been investigating these and we know AIP has, but we don't know who else has. So this is news to us because counter to what you've been telling us in the past. So it is interesting, but I think it's obvious that the gist of my story was we know where this comes from. I mean, Elizondo comes out in October with to the Stars announcement. Some of the people in the media and Leslie Kain and Ralph Blumenthal deserve a lot of credit. They saw this is important.

(00:16:21):

They were able to talk to New York Times and doing the story that came out in December. The story became huge. A lot of the witnesses related to the Nimitz case that was in the New York Times article, then started coming out and talking on all the major news stations then. And I have links to all these stories in my post here. Then we have politicians saying they want these guys to come talk to them in different committees, including the Senate Armed Services Committee. And so they do. And so we have all of this going on in the background, and finally those guys must have been able to really pique the interest of the politicians and the others that they talked to because this is happening. So Tom DeLong posted and he said, this is a direct result of to the Stars Academy and our efforts. And some people have said, I don't see any evidence of that, but I think there's plenty. I mean, we've talked about this. People are like, why isn't too the stars telling us what they're doing because we're not their audience. This isn't all totally a public facing things like Lou has said. They're trying to grease the wheels behind the scenes and get the people who should be paying attention and should be releasing information and doing investigations, doing the work. And that's where they've spent a lot of their time, which we wouldn't see, but here we're seeing the results of it.

Speaker 3 (00:17:49):

Wow, so interesting. I'm wondering now if other armed services will follow suit. Of course the Navy has a lot of air power, but the Air Force number one, you'd wonder if they would follow suit on this.

Speaker 4 (00:18:06):

Yeah, those are great points. Those are really great points. And we don't know. It's very interesting. I think that the Navy should bring up the US Air Force maybe because people might be thinking, well, why is the Navy saying this? Shouldn't it be the Air Force that's talking about this? So maybe for that reason, I wouldn't imagine though that the Navy would bring up the Air Force in this statement without first conversing at some level with the Air Force about what they're doing. So it would make sense. I think that we would hear something from the Air Force soon. Now we haven't seen what these guidelines are going to be. Some people say, oh, they're just going to lock everything down even worse. And that's possible. These guidelines may say you report your citing up to command and then you're not to speak about your citing at all until we've got analysis.

(00:19:01):

And that could be it. However, I think what we have to realize is like they said, they take these sightings seriously. And Nick Pope has talked about this. For instance, when the MOD closed theirs, and we've talked about this even with the Air Force, even though the Air Force is telling us we don't care about UFOs, we know from documents they do care about UFOs and they have been investigating. So this is the truth, it's this is all the public facing end of things. So this is a public statement. So what they're saying here essentially is we're now going to look into this. We're going to take these reports, which makes it incumbent upon them to have some sort of public relations regarding all this. And that's what really this is kind of saying is now we're going to start interacting with the public a little more about this topic.

Speaker 3 (00:19:50):

Well, it's always kind of silly if you really think about it, the denial, because who would be the number one branch of the government that would want to make sure the air is safe? And that would be the Air Force. I'm talking about the us of course. But for them to deny it. And it doesn't mean anything. Chicago, the O'Hare incident C 17, that one in particular like, oh my God, that's one of the busiest airports in the world. Or at least one of the busiest in the country. And for there to be a UFO and them not to have, for them not to worry about it at all, it is absolutely silly and doesn't make any sense. So of course they're not, it never made any sense that they have no interest because of the safety factors alone

Speaker 4 (00:20:51):

Basically. Yeah, exactly. And that gets into one of these stories. So on the front page of Open Minds tv, you'll see the original Politico article. You'll see my blog kind of shaping this for you all hopefully, and giving you some more insight and links into some of the background. We've got the one you mentioned, the Washington Post, the Angry Pilots, and I think that's a big part of it. These pilots like Commander David Fravor, I don't think the Navy wants to disparage these people or do like what Nick Pope calls spin and dirty tricks and kind of discount these people. Fravor is an important guy, and I think they would rather say, okay, we're going to listen to your report as opposed to their previous policy, which was to kind of make fun of the reports. But we've got the Navy wrote something up, they didn't really add anything new to it, but it's interesting the Navy Times wrote about it. But this is the last one I have here, which is from the War Zone, our buddy Tyler Rope Away just reading that, and that's a good one. It's called, what the Hell Is Going on with the UFOs and Department of Defense? And he brings up kind of what you're talking about. Of course they would be idiots not to be looking into this. And he's kind of saying it's kind of silly that they said they weren't paying attention to aircraft that can do things.

(00:22:06):

We can see doing incredible maneuvers and not to pay attention to them. But the other thing that some people have been a little concerned about is he said, this very could possibly be a secret spy plane or drone of some sort. And some people were like, that's impossible. If they looked at the SEU report, the characteristics show that it's beyond what we can do. But I think this is a good sign because he also said, we cannot deny that these craft exist, that these craft, they were witnessed by at the best of our best of all of our tech by our F 18 pilots, this has to exist. This thing had to have done what these pilots said it did. So what the heck is it? He's saying, we have to face the fact that there are these things out there. He's saying now it could be a black project, but I like it's at least moving the conversation forward to let's not ignore it because of the term UFO. Let's take a serious look and try to figure out what this is. And I think as he sees more information like that SCU report, more background into people like Eric Davis, he's going to see that there's a lot more to this and even he realizes. So it's going to be fun. Raway is a great journalist too. I don't think he's going to shy away from the tough stuff.

Speaker 3 (00:23:19):

Right. And one of the things, I recently had a mini debate with someone about the Tic-tac, and they said they were sure that their statement was is they were sure that it was a secret government project. And I said, well, it doesn't really make sense that we can have a craft that would hold together with the G-Force that this thing was taking. We just don't have that yet. I mean, I see how we could have

Speaker 4 (00:23:46):

That. Right, exactly. So a couple other stories we're almost out of time. I can't believe it. Wow. I know it flies, but it's such exciting news. A poll on the Sonoma Index. So last week we talked about A UFO sighting. They talked about, that must have been a popular article. Now they did a poll, how many people have sightings? And they had about 20% had sightings. They also had about 35% of people say there's no such thing as UFOs. And it's a bunch of hooey, but a couple other things in South Carolina, a welcome center for UFOs, some guy in Wales took a UFO photograph. I typically, you'll notice, have not been including UK tabloids. They've got some really terrible stories lately, real goofball stuff. But I did include this one, Joe Wood, because she's pretty famous and I guess she's starting a TV show or a podcast where she's going to be interviewing other stars, including Dan Aykroyd about UFOs. And she shared some interesting sightings there. And then finally, I do want to talk about this. That's Rolling

Speaker 3 (00:24:47):

Stones. I'm sorry, that's Ronnie Woods' former wife.

Speaker 4 (00:24:51):

Okay. I want to talk about this one, an interview with this guy Sean Cahill, who's going to be on the Unidentified Show on the History Channel. And this is from the Silva record. So we had Danny Silva on, so this will be from the Silva record. So some cool stories there. And one last thing, sorry, Martin, I do want to talk about Karen did extend the code for the International UFO Congress. So as you're listening to the show, you might want to go to UFO congress.com, get your tickets, and for any of the packages, use that code. Save 50 and you'll save $50 save 50. Wow.

Speaker 3 (00:25:25):

I'm going to try that code everywhere. Hey, so that's September 4th through the eighth coming up.

Speaker 4 (00:25:30):

Yes, September 4th through the eighth. Thank you for bringing that up. And we've got a lot of the speakers listed, a lot of great stuff, and we have some exciting speakers yet to be listed, so check that out. But thank you so much for joining us with the news, Martin.

Speaker 3 (00:25:44):

Oh, it's fun as always. You're welcome.

Speaker 4 (00:25:47):

It's a blast. Alright, well let's go ahead and get into our interview with Dr. Eric Davis. We'll be right back after this break. I am very happy to welcome to the show for the first time, Dr. Eric Davis. Hello, how are you?

Eric Davis (00:26:20):

Fine. I'm doing great. How are you doing?

Speaker 4 (00:26:22):

I am doing very well. And I guess my first question we have a lot to get into is what do you think of this news coming just recently that the Navy is working up some guidelines on UFO reporting?

Eric Davis (00:26:38):

Well, it's about time and the Navy has always led all of the service branches in many areas. And this is just another example where they're ahead of the curve, whereas the Army and the Air Force just shy away. For example, the Navy is the leader in directed energy weapons development in the Department of Defense. So they have had the most accelerated schedule for developing directed energy and deploying it on combat test vehicles. Well, first doing experimental prototyping and testing and then deploying it on a combat vehicle out in the Persian Gulf. So they're way ahead of where the Army and Marine Corps and the Air Force have been in those services, haven't even yet fielded any prototypical combat weapons that can be fielded, that have been fielded. They haven't done that. They're just doing development and testing and they'll be doing prototyping inside the United States and they're just lagging behind. And then with the UFO subject comes along here, well, what do you know? It's the Navy that's having all the problems with the encounters of TicTac like UFOs or other UFOs. And so they're the ones that are going to take the lead to mandate a specific reporting reporting protocol for everybody that has such encounters.

Speaker 4 (00:28:02):

And you think as far as the leadership is concerned, are they concerned about a possible unknown or do you think that they mostly feel that these could be foreign adversaries just using technology we don't recognize?

Eric Davis (00:28:16):

Well, the first hypothesis is it's a foreign adversary that we don't recognize. But then once you do the analysis of the F 18 fighter, FLIR videos and radar from the surface warships, like for example, I'm speaking of the USS Nimitz carrier strike groups encountered with the TIC-TAC back in November, 2004 in the first week, I believe for a hope for about a week of encounters. And when you look at visual sightings, timings scoped sightings that were done from onboard the ships using sophisticated observational scopes that they use out in the ocean, and then of course the weapon systems radar and aviation radar. And then the fighters have their own systems and so forth. When you look at when first contact is made and then how rapidly the object moves and changes altitude and hovers over the ocean and zips off again and is changing altitude by tens of thousands of feet or dozens of times, tens of thousands of feet in a matter of three to five seconds, you're not basically talking about human technology.

(00:29:34):

There's no Russian or Chinese or North Korean or Iranian or anybody else. No NATO or any other alliance or non alliance country, non allied countries have any sort of technology that can perform the way these tic-Tacs were found to be performing. And it's really easy to discern the difference between even an unknown manmade object and this phenomenon because unknown manmade objects have to obey the laws of aerodynamics and the engineering that's associated with that, and excuse me, and the tic-tacs don't have any observable control surfaces. They don't have any appendage, they don't have any external engines and engine mounts and pylons, what am I thinking of? I can't think of the word right now, but it's how the engines are connected up. And so control surfaces are lacking, external propulsion is lacking. You don't see windows. And so what is this? This isn't anything, even a drone wouldn't look like this. All drones have an engine, a propulsion system, which is very easy and obvious to observe. And their structural fuselages are also very easy to discern and determine, and they adhere to the human designs for aeronautical platforms that move through air. The things we're seeing are not shaped in the usual typical way that we humans would shape them. So you got to come up with another hypothesis, and the only hypothesis is something unknown and it's got a good chance that it's not human technology.

Speaker 4 (00:31:31):

So thank you for that. But we'll get into your background now and kind of related to this, now you've been doing this and a lot of your colleagues that you work with in particular help put off, of course you've been working in this arena for decades. But there are these ideas out there right now that this is part of some controlled disclosure that this has all been planned. And if that was so that would mean that you were part of some bigger plan. I mean, is that something that you feel is credible at all? Do you see that? Or is this just the fruits of your efforts, all of your efforts to bring the credibility to these more what would be considered fringe areas of science?

Eric Davis (00:32:15):

Well, it's two things. It's the cumulative effect of all of our efforts, decades of efforts of hard work. But the release of this information is driven strictly by the phenomenon itself. All this nonsense about a planned disclosure or confirmation, that's all conspiracy theory, nonsense. And it's one of the first order hypothesis that jumps into many people's minds when they're uninformed about what's going on. The United States government is such a big and complex organization, multiple organizations, I should say interconnecting, interlocking, and by deliberative reasons, parts of it are secret and other parts are not secret. Parts that are secret don't talk to the non-secret parts. And even the parts that are secret don't talk among themselves or within themselves because of compartmentalization or certain, the differences in classification, many different secrets out.

(00:33:20):

So there is no coordinated anything. I have to guarantee you that the United States government is not that coordinated, especially in the Donald Trump era, right? Anyway, anyway, there's no such thing as a coordinated or uncoordinated or planned or unplanned disclosure. That's all been a salesman pitch that was invented by a lot of the more vocal high profile celebrities in ufology. And that's how they sell their books. That's how they sell tickets to their special events. And that's how UFO conferences sell tickets to their conferences. When these type of people are invited as guest speakers, this lies in the realm of rational, scientific and bureaucratic thinking. The UFO phenomenon has been encountering naval weapons platforms repeatedly and has created a dangerous environment for the human pilots that are involved. And so now it's becoming a great safety issue because the numbers or the frequency, well, I should say the numbers and the frequency of the encounters is pretty big, and it is not minute.

(00:34:31):

It's not rare. It's not once in a while. It's more like, yeah, it's pretty often and it isn't located. And when geography, it's spread across the globe and it's interacting with the US Navy. So that's been driving their desire to want to do this new reporting protocol and put it out there, which Politico just reported yesterday. And then as far as what Lue Elizondo did after he retired from the DOD is, he was pretty upset that this program, the AAWSAP program, and it's not really called the AATIP, that's the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program that Harry Reid pulled out from thin air and made it up on his own in a letter that he wrote to Deputy Secretary of Defense William Bly many years ago. And the actual program is A-A-W-S-A-P, and I forget Advanced Aerospace Weapons something or other I don't remember.

Speaker 4 (00:35:33):

Application program.

Eric Davis (00:35:35):

Yeah, that's probably it.

Speaker 4 (00:35:38):

And it turned out, anyway, I think this kind of goes back to your communication issue because it turned out, I think it seems what had happened is Harry Reed was aware that Lue and the guy running A-A-W-S-A-P had been working on AATIP and using the term, but that information probably didn't get to you all because you were hired by and working with A-A-W-S-A-P.

Eric Davis (00:36:09):

No, it's just that Harry Reid wasn't fully briefed on everything.

Speaker 4 (00:36:13):

That's how Lue had said that, that actually Harry Reid.

Eric Davis (00:36:18):

Okay, well, I'm not going to contradict Lue then. That's fine. My view is, yeah, we were working as subcontractors to Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies who had the contract to the Defense Intelligence Agency. And so yeah, our worldview was A-A-W-S-A-P, and then all of a sudden we see a AATIP pop up. Okay? So I'm not going to contradict Lue. He knows more about it at that level. I didn't sit in his office and hear all this jargon go flashing by I, I'm one of the worker bees who were expediting the mission. And anyway, so no, there's no conspiracy the theory, there's no long, it's like the long awaited return of Jesus. Well, everybody's had the long awaited disclosure and it's like, no, this isn't it.

(00:37:16):

However, officially the United States government via the DOD, of course, I'll reverse it. The DOD has issued an official confirmation. So that's what they've done. They've officially confirmed it. Now they have done disclosure. What they've disclosed is, hey, they have had encounters with unusual craft that they cannot identify as human made or unknown human made craft. In other words, the objects don't follow the aerodynamic rules of engineering. They just don't. Okay. And that's driven by physics. And I'm not saying that they're breaking the laws of physics, so don't quote me on anything having to do with while they're operating on a new physics we haven't invented, or no, they're breaking the laws of physics. It is possible they're operating on a physics we haven't invented or haven't discovered yet. That's possible. We don't know. So anyway, the point is, is that these things are operating, they go way outside the envelope of our engineering and physics technologies.

(00:38:22):

And I can guarantee you that no laws of physics are broken whatsoever. It's just that it's either the existing laws that we have, but we haven't extrapolated it further enough, further enough, or expanded it enough into realms or areas of phase base where we could discover new solutions to these existing physical laws, which would give us advanced propulsion and power that would produce this type of technology once you have an engineering and a manufacturing technology to create these things. So that's where we're at. And these things don't look like anything that we can manufacture on earth. So we don't have the manufacturing or industrial technology for it. We don't have an engineering for it. In other words, the blueprints and designs to get something shaped like a fighter size piece of candy mouth bent and get that to fly through the air stably and do the wonderful things that they do in the airs reported by the F 18 pilots at the associated with the Nimitz carrier strike group, of course.

(00:39:32):

And then we have the history of UFO encounters that we've seen. All we know about it, Jacques Vallee has recorded all this in his books, Alan Hynek and Jacques Vallee and Bob Ger and his book associated with his TV documentary UFOs, it has begun or UFOs past, present and future, which two different versions because one was an updated version of the other. And so all the other, well-known UFO researchers in academia and industry and government who had done all the investigations and identified as many witness descriptions of UFOs. When you look at these things which were really well exemplified in the schematic artwork shown in Bob Edgar's book from 1974, it's clear that these things have different shapes that are not aerodynamic. They just don't follow the human engineering physics principles for aviation or aeronautical or aerospace flight.

Speaker 4 (00:40:35):

I do want to get into few other things, and I think that you've shown that well, and I do appreciate you answering the question about the disclosure conspiracy and even a little embarrassed to ask because I do not see that present when looking into and researching any of this. I see a history, rich history of you all working on this for years, but it's something that comes up and readers wanted to know. But I want to get into your background and that history. So when was it that you began working on, I'm not sure what you refer to it, but what is considered kind of fringe science?

Eric Davis (00:41:11):

I don't call it fringe science, I call it out of the box science. Fringe has a negative connotation. It's not exactly an accurate word to use. We just call it out of the box cutting edge. Pioneer.

Speaker 4 (00:41:27):

I love that.

Eric Davis (00:41:28):

Breakthrough, breakthrough science, et cetera. I became among the world's first few full-time paid professional scientists who were investigating UFOs when I got hired by Bob Bigelow to work at the National Institute for Discovery Science in July of 1996. And then I went to work for him in Las Vegas, and then I was joined by Colm Kelleher and Dr. Who's got a PhD in biochemistry, molecular biology, immunology, and he's got quite a background in immunology and diseases, mostly virology and cancers. And then we were joined by Dr. George Nette, who is a world famous, world renowned Romanian veterinary pathologist who specialized in avian and bovine diseases. And we joined together with Colonel John Alexander, who has a PhD in ology, and he studies death, and he was interested in survival consciousness after death, and he was working for Bob Bigelow at the time on the knit staff. And so we all came together, and of course, John had been working for Bob for some time before we got hired.

(00:42:44):

The three of us got hired in July of 1996, and all of our work where a good chunk of our work was well recorded and documented in Kelleher Knapp's book Hunt for the Skin Walker, which you're familiar with. Yes, very. And so especially our workout on the NIDS UFO Ranch up in Northeast Utah in the Utah Valley. And so that documents a good chunk of what we did at ns, not everything, because that book was about the ranch, and we did a lot more than just the ranch. We often use the ranch and Las Vegas is our headquarters to go investigate cattle mutilations and UFO and crypto terrestrial sightings. And so just whatever was convenient. The ranch is really nice because closer to the upper western side of the Midwest, and Las Vegas is really closer to California. So we're in the Pacific Coast area in Las Vegas, so we can reach quite a bit of places from there, but we're still kind of far removed from the actual Midwest and the East coast areas.

(00:43:55):

So it's just that Bigelow didn't want to expand NIDS any further than Las Vegas. And so we just had those two jumping off bases from which we could do investigations. So we mainly stayed regional within that area, and we had a 1-800 number line that was set up and the FAA collaboration that was set up so that if anybody called in UFO reports, they could call our 1-800 number and we could do a preliminary interview with the caller, take information and make a decision on whether it was necessary to send investigators out to investigate their sighting and whatnot. So anyway, I did that for six years until my job got eliminated during a downsizing of NIDS, because of the emergence of Bigelow aerospace, Bob Bigelow was shifting his attention away from UFOs because he kind of had about a five year attention span on these types of things. And he figured we'd have all the problems solved by then, and that's not possible. There's a lot of scientific problems, especially in phenomenology, which can take more than a decade of research and study and investigations collecting data and analyzing it and forming and reforming or changing hypotheses until you finally converge on the hypothesis or the theory that is doing very well to explain all the data you're collecting. And so

Speaker 4 (00:45:26):

I was going to say,

Eric Davis (00:45:27):

I was just going to wrap it up. Go ahead. I was there, and then I went to work for the Air Force Research Lab as a contractor to the Advanced Concepts program office at Edwards Air Force Base, California. And I did that from, actually, I started working for them before my job got eliminated. So from January until mid 2005, I was working for them, but I started working for Hal Puthoff as a research physicist in November of 2004, and I've been working for Hal ever since then. And I got promoted up a few years ago up to chief science officer, so well, I became senior research physicist among the other staff of the other physicists we had who had been here about six years earlier than I have, six years longer than I have. Hal was also on the staff as the director of the Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin. So he was the director. He's also a research physicist in his own right, of course, which you probably know. And so there were three of us physicists on the staff, and then we had a couple of lab engineers who would put our experiments together and then other support personnel. And so I just rose up through the ranks and became the chief science officer, which is where I'm at now.

Speaker 4 (00:46:46):

In that history. When you talked about skin walker, for instance, I've talked with Colm and with Alexander, and I guess the first question we would be, they both kind of had this view that they were outsmarted by the phenomenon. In fact, Alexander uses this term a pre-cognitive sentient phenomena. Would you agree with that estimation or thought?

Eric Davis (00:47:12):

Yeah, that's pretty much true. That's pretty much true. Yeah. It was always one step ahead of us.

Speaker 4 (00:47:18):

And John talked about one person in particular that the phenomena seemed to center around. And from what I gather, that might have been you. Is that true?

Eric Davis (00:47:28):

Yeah, pretty much. But Colm Kellerher had witnessed some events, so I wasn't the only one that had all of the experiences. I had many experiences and some of those I had with Colm. But then there were experiences that Colm and I did not have because we got to a point where we needed to rotate staff on and off the ranch because Colm and I were fathers of very small children, very young children in school back in those days. And so we needed to stay home a lot more otherwise our wives would get angry if we're gone too long. So George Onette was relatively single. I mean, he was still married and his kids were grown, and his wife was working as a professional scientist in another state where they originally lived before he came to Las Vegas. So he didn't have any family duties in Vegas.

(00:48:17):

So we had him, and then we had Canadian field investigator, Chad Dekin, and we didn't have Shelly Wadsworth involved with this directly. She was indirectly involved because she worked for Bob Bigelow as one of his field investigators. And so she would be more like a conduit of information, but she would do background stuff for us or bring it information our direction, and we'd act on it. So we had Shelly Wadsworth, Chad Deakin, but of the people that went to the ranch, it was basically Colm, George, myself, Chad, and the former ranch owner. And after he left and moved away with his family to another state, we got the retired chief deputy of the Uintic County Sheriff's Department to take over the former ranch manager's job, and he became the new ranch manager. And his work for us also included him doing some investigations in the area for us.

(00:49:16):

So he became an investigator as well. And then later on down the road and NIDS hired a couple more investigators. We had John Vale, who's a retired FBI special agent, and then Roger Pinson, who was retired from the San Diego Police Department who had worked for the Nevada state law enforcement, I can't remember which. It was having to do with the transportation policing on the highways. I'm not sure if it was, I don't know that he was a highway patrol officer, but he was in that capacity. And then he left that job and came to work for us as a full-time investigator. Roger, before becoming a police officer, was actually at the A-F-O-S-I. He was a special agent with AFOSI.

(00:49:57):

So he's an expert investigator like John Blair. So we had quite a bit of staff and we were investigating a lot of UFO cases, and not everything was on the ranch, so we had periods of quiescence on the ranch. So there were always up cycles, down cycles where the activity would hot or it would just get cold. And then it reached a point by about 2000, it started getting cold and stayed cold through 2001. And by early 2002, that's when Bob decided to start actually starting in 2000. Bob started cutting personnel because that's when the ranch phenomenon started getting too cold that it didn't justify having all that staff. Also, we didn't have that many outside UFO cases called into our 1-800 number, so we didn't have a lot coming in, and the FAA wasn't reporting a lot to us either, so it just got very slow and Bob is very frugal about his money, so he wants to cut back.

(00:50:55):

He's building that aerospace company up and he needs the money to do that with. So he had to cut our budget to come up with more money every time. So by 2001, 2002, John Alexander and Pete Pickup and I, I think Chad Deacon and Shelly Wadsworth, we all had lost our position and Shelly and Chad. So I got to be clear that they were only paid when they had an assignment. And so they were like 1099 employees. But Colm George and John Alexander and I were all full-time employees of NIDS. And John Alexander also lost his job the same time I did in the late winter of, I should say, in early 2002, which was still the winter. And then my job actually terminated in the spring because I had some unused vacation and sick leave I could use up before I actually was off to payroll.

Speaker 4 (00:51:54):

Alright, we're going to take a quick break and then we're going to come back. I have a lot of questions about some of the stuff that you've gone over and you're just a wealth of information, which is so helpful. But we'll be right back after this short musical interlude or if you're listening on a station, a commercial break with Dr. Eric Davis. So stay tuned.

(00:52:33):

Welcome back to Open Mind, GFO Radio. I am, I have the pleasure of speaking for the first time with Dr. Eric Davis, and you've gone over a lot of really interesting information when it comes to the UFO reporting. In 2009, BAASS, Bigelow Advanced Aerospace Group had a partnership with MUFON, and I was actually the PR guy, so I was coming up with the press releases for all of this stuff. But now in hindsight, I kind of scratched my head and I think, wow, I was part of that program. But did that reprogram receive some of those AATIP fundings? Do you know? Did it?

Eric Davis (00:53:11):

I didn't get that question. Can you repeat it please?

Speaker 4 (00:53:14):

Did the MUFON BAASS Relationship partnership, was that funding from AAWSAP or AATIP?

Eric Davis (00:53:23):

I believe so.

Speaker 4 (00:53:25):

It would make sense.

Eric Davis (00:53:27):

That was nothing I had any role in. So my recollection is I believe that the MUFON funding did come out of that.

Speaker 4 (00:53:36):

So another question is related, and I want to ask more about some of this, but so Kit Green and Garry Nolan are both working on these projects to identify people who experienced paranormal phenomena or even have remote viewing skills. Can we identify in their DNA or parts of their brain that make them more capable of these things or more susceptible to experiences? Have they come to you and taken samples from you?

Eric Davis (00:54:06):

There's a part of that question that last, can you repeat that last part of that question?

Speaker 4 (00:54:10):

So have

Eric Davis (00:54:10):

They, you skipped out,

Speaker 4 (00:54:12):

Have you been part of that experiment?

Eric Davis (00:54:16):

Oh, no. I was a test subject. In other words, I contributed blood, but no, I'm not a part of that because I'm not a medical guy.

Speaker 4 (00:54:26):

Well, that was the sense I meant it. Were you kind of a test subject because you had these experiences at Skin Walker, and I guess were you ever frightened? Did you feel threatened

Eric Davis (00:54:38):

Me? Not really.

Speaker 4 (00:54:41):

What was the most not really harrowing experience, I guess, that you had? I know, was that experience? Go ahead.

Eric Davis (00:54:49):

I never really had a harrowing experience. I think the dark shadow experience was pretty, I would say startling experience.

Speaker 4 (00:54:55):

That portal

Eric Davis (00:54:57):

Yeah, the dark shadow and the ball of light or the orb that came before it, and then the shooting incident that we had at a separate time. Oh, I'm

Speaker 4 (00:55:07):

Oh I'm not aware of that one. I don't think. I don't remember it. Oh,

Eric Davis (00:55:09):

That was in the book. Yeah, that's the one in the book where Jesus, that's over 20 years ago. Basically we're out in the field at night. I think we were having to do something to deal with a pregnant cow that was giving birth, and the herd was getting restless. So the ranch manager thought, well, there might be a big cat lurking around. And they usually like to lurk when the cows are most vulnerable because they're giving birth. So he was kind of concerned. We had to go look outside to find out. We had to get in his pickup and go drive around to find out if there was any big cats out there, and then take a look at what the cows are doing and find out about that pregnant cow. And I believe that was the case about the pregnant cow. I may be wrong about that, but that's what I thought.

(00:55:56):

That's what I'm thinking in my mind is I thought we were worried about a pregnant cow. But in other words, I do know that we were worried about the cows overall being stirred up by something. And so we're in the near pasture closest to the ranch, to the manufactured home that Bigelow had installed for the staff to live in. We call that the observation house, and right next door to that is the house where the previous owners lived in. And so anyway, so we were out that night. I don't remember now what time in the night it was. It was kind of late. It was definitely dark. I don't remember what time of the year it was warm. It could have been spring or fall. I'm not that good about bovine issues. I think it might've been the spring because this one being born. It'll probably be born in the spring or late winter, but it was a warm season.

(00:56:45):

So we're driving around in the near field, near pasture, and there's a certain tree on a corner where the barbed wire fence makes a 90 degree turn from going west, going north, I believe. And I may have my directions turned around, but nevertheless, it's a corner tree. It's a big Russian olive tree. And I think this is, it may have been the beginning of the spring because I remember there were no leaves in the tree yet. So it might've been the end of winter, beginning spring, but it was still not cold. So I noticed two really large growing yellow eyes. They looked like the eyes of a big cat, the predator cat. The only problem is they were too big, they were too far apart, and they were up near the top of the tree, well in the main bulk of the branches, but close to the top, somewhere in the top one third of it.

(00:57:45):

And they're just blinking. And I'm thinking, what the hell is that? I've never seen a cat that bigger with eyes that wide and big, and I'm thinking now, that's no cat. So Colm Kelleher was with me, and so was the ranch manager. So I called their attention to it and they saw it, and then the ranch manager thought, oh my God, that's a cat. He immediately jumped to conclusions. It was a cat. He had his rifle and his spotlight with him. So we drove toward it. And what I remember is that the eyes disappeared and it looked like something fell from the tree and hit the ground. And then I didn't see anything after that. It's just like the eyes closed up in the tree and I thought something was falling and hit the ground, and I didn't see anything run away, but there was nothing there.

(00:58:36):

So we parked the pickup in front of the left to the left of that, in front of the fence, and behind the fence is all this thick foliage. I mean Russian olives and all kinds of other trees and shrubs and bushes out there, overgrown grass and whatnot. And now that I think about it, yes, it was near the end of winter. It was winter time, as a matter of fact, now that I think about it, it wasn't really that warm. I remember because we had snow on the ground in peace. It wasn't snow covered, it was just patches of snow that was left over from an earlier snow. And the ground had warmed up enough that a lot of it melted off and cool. Only parts of it that were in the shade all the time were the only patches that stayed intact, but slowly melding away as the temperatures were warming up.

(00:59:22):

So I think we were in this winter spring transition. So anyway, we parked the truck, cherry got out with this rifle and handed me the spotlight. I got out and he told me to aim the spotlight. We're looking along the fence line and the trees to look for this animal because he's worried it's a big cat and he's got to shoot it problem. We didn't see the thing with the glowing big eyes, but we saw something whose body profile we saw right in front of us on the other side of the wire. You couldn't see the rear end, you couldn't see the front. You just saw the middle of this body that looked fairly big to me. It looked like a big cow. But to Terry, it looked like a bear. And we were at point blank range from it. So he just fired some shots at it.

(01:00:11):

It didn't flinch, and it just walked off into the shrubs and disappeared. We couldn't see the hind end of this thing. Wow. Yeah. So all three of us got our way through the barbed wire. We had to spread the barbed wire part to get through. We got in and there's a clearing behind all the shrubs and trees, and we followed the clearing thinking, well, that's the only place it's going to go. And there's no footprints in the ground, on the ground at all. Nothing. There's no blood, there's no broken twigs or anything. Then we finally run into the little patches of snow. And in the patches of snow, there's no footprints and no blood drops or trails of lots of blood that you would expect from an animal that's been shot several times. And nothing except one single deer footprint, just one single deer footprint, not two, not three, not four, just one. And it was pointed back in the direction of the pickup, not in the direction that we would expect if it was running away from us. So that was odd. And we didn't see any other footprints. And I mean, this ground is a bit muddy from the snow melt.

(01:01:17):

And this print was on the patch of snow. So anyway, we gave up because we looked all around, we couldn't find anything. So we reported it to Bob Bigelow later on. And the next morning, Bob got his master Hunter Tracker, who's the ranch manager for his private ranch. And I won't say what state that is. I think he manages Bob's personal vacation ranch in another state. And Bob flew him in on his jet to our ranch and actually went to the airport at Vernal, Utah, and you have to drive 23 miles to get to fore. So that guy showed up, and he's an expert hunter tracker. So he started working in a five mile radius, starting from the shooting spot, and just cracked that thing everywhere. He just could not find a single sign of a large animal that had been shot multiple times, and no carcass, no nothing, no blood.

Speaker 4 (01:02:16):

Wow,

Eric Davis (01:02:16):

no footprint, no footprints or yeah, no hook prints is what you would expect. So that was the one experience. And then I had a couple of crazy experiences actually went in the same, just two separate buildings. It's the second home, it's the homestead, the crumbled down 19th century homestead where I had the dark shadow incident and the orbs in it would Colm Kelleher. I went into those homes doing some field readings with the radiation Geiger counter and the trifield meter, looking at the field situation, electric magnetic and radio whatnot. And then looking at the nuclear radiation. And of course it's nothing out there. It's quiet. And I stepped into one of the homesteads and I got attacked. And what looked like bats to me is are swirling around. They were angry and I just ran out of there.

(01:03:13):

I would say, yeah, I got frightened. But that was, so I kind have to backtrack on my earlier statement that I had. The experience I previously described, I didn't consider to be frightening, but this frightened me because it got my heart rate going and I had to run out of there because I didn't know what to do because I got what I thought were backs swirling around. Well, that happened a second time, and I don't remember now whether it was the same incident or whether I went in a separate time, a separate day, and had the same thing within the second house. There's two little old houses next door to each other. And so I went into the second one, had the same experience, and these are taking place in the living room areas. And upon reporting it to Colin, we go back in the next day, take a look where we've got full sunshine, and I think this happened late afternoon, early evening, so I don't have full sunshine going on.

(01:04:10):

And I think actually they were just after dusk actually, now that I remember the events were just after dusk. So we found a sparrow nest up on the corners of the wall and the ceiling more than one. There were several Sparrow nest and sparrows used mud. They take in mud in their beaks, and I don't know if they actually swallow it, they probably swallow it and then they regurgitate it to make these little mud huts up in the wall in the coronary to protect their eggs. And that's what they were. They weren't bats, they were sparrows, and they scared the crap out of me.

Speaker 4 (01:04:45):

So nothing Paranormal there,

Eric Davis (01:04:48):

But we attribute that actually, if you want to look at it on a scientific basis holistically, you don't want to say, I just walked in and scared the shit out of a few sparrows, mother sparrows that were protecting their eggs. What it could have been is that, yeah, they were there. And I think the common denominator would be, yeah, that's what I did. I scared them. So they decided to go on the attack by flying around me. The problem is, is that it may have actually been a part of the phenomenon that I would've stepped into there and gotten attacked. Now, I wasn't disturbing, this is the funny thing. I wasn't disturbing anything. I did not poke those things. I did see them. I didn't poke them. I wasn't making noise. I was actually walking around quietly and just using the meters, taking a look at stuff. And then all of a sudden, these black things, these wing and black things that I thought were bats were just rushing my head in circles. I just don't know. John Alexander has a good background, Colin Kelleher does in that that I do on explaining that part of the event. And Colin has written about it in the sense that he can come up with an explanation that it was the phenomenon, it was the act of the phenomenon that that had happened to me and me only, whereas other people had been in those two houses and never had that problem like I did. And it seemed that that problem only had followed me twice.

(01:06:17):

Colm and I had another, Go ahead.

Speaker 4 (01:06:19):

Oh, I was just going to ask you, do you feel that you were a magnet for the phenomena? And if so, do you know why? Do you have any ideas?

Eric Davis (01:06:26):

Well That's a hypothesis we have on people like abductees or people who were not abductees but have more than the usual statistical probability of close encounter experiences, the worst of the mediocre or of the worst kind people. You can actually psychically act as an antenna for the phenomenon. And it turns out that the studies that Kit Green and Garry Nolan have done along with Colm's help is that they have discovered that the bio, well, they're not physicists. I would put it in the terms of biophysics. I'll just say the biology or the bio immunology or the bioscience of the immune system is that your immune system, which I don't know how many of American people know this or aware of it, depending upon their degree of education, is that your immune system is a separate organ in your body. It's not just a system of chemicals. Your immune system is an organ and it regenerates itself like some of your other organs.

(01:07:30):

And also it's super sensitive. And genetically, Garry Nolan and Colm Kellerher discovered that the immune system records every single event that has ever happened in your life. So it's like the Library of Congress that records everything that occurred since the day you were born, probably even before you were born. And one of the things that records are the insults that your body has taken due to environmental exposure or injuries or diseases, and it keeps a perfect record of that stuff. And so they hypothesize that this is really greater. It's acting like a brain, and it's responding like a brain in a psychic way, although it's tied into your real brain, but it does behave as if it has its own mind. So anyway, their hypothesis is, and I don't remember all the discussions that we've had on this because that was many, many years ago, but the gist of what I know is that the immune system works like an antenna.

(01:08:29):

It absorbs everything in the environment around you. And that might be the reason why the phenomenon is interested in you, because it may know that you've got some genetic predisposition that it's interested in the most. That's what Gary and Kit's work is all about, is why are certain people highly sensitive to being, having this genetic disposition to phenomenon encounters, and then they go into the caudate patam studies using FMRI scans and whatnot. And so the rest of that story, so it seems that there are people that are more sensitive than others and it just isn't in the straight old fashioned brain psychic sense. You might need to throw the immune system into it because the immune system does behave like an antenna that sucks in information, records it, and it's got knowledge, and it may be communicating in its own way that we haven't fully discovered everything that it does to my understanding. And so it's still under study and genetics is very complicated. Genetics is not straightforward, and it's not linear. It's a very nonlinear, non straightforward, very counterintuitive thing that produces life in this, at least on this planet. And as far as we know, there's still much more to be learned. We haven't learned all there is to know about or to find out about it, we're still making those discoveries. So the same goes for the immune system because the immune system is a function of genetics, of course.

Speaker 4 (01:10:00):

So when you refer to abduction, do you believe that people actually are being taken physically taken by extra terrestrials?

Eric Davis (01:10:09):

I don't think they're being taken by extra terrestrials. We don't have proof that they're extraterrestials. We know that whatever it is is not human. Now, there is a hypothesis that they've been abducted by a covert, clandestine rogue, non-state operation that looks at people of specific backgrounds with specific prepositions. Maybe it's a genetic thing too, and they get abducted because they're being tested or examined or there's a purpose involved with that. That's a hypothesis I've heard among my colleagues. And the standard hypothesis that comes from John Mack and David Jacobson and Bud Hopkins work has all been the extraterrestrial hypothesis that UFOs are from another planet. They're coming down, they're going to pick a few humans off the ground to evaluate them.

(01:11:04):

Just like a cattle rancher who's breeding specific breed of black Angus or specific breed of char's cattle wants to walk randomly into the pen or into the pasture to nab a particular cow, take it back. And like the former ranch manager, the original owner of the ranch at the time that we, in our era, the one who reported all of his family's problems with that phenomenon and ended up working for Bob Biglow when they left the ranch, what he was was he was a college educated, very sophisticated animal husbandry expert. And it wasn't just his skill running a ranch raising cattle. It was his skill in that he was able to do crossbreeding and hybridization breeding using the techniques he learned in college. And that was he could transplant embryos. He knew all the process and procedures for developing bovine embryos and transplanting them in order to get the best breed of cattle with the best meat quality for a market.

(01:12:06):

So he was that sophisticated. So he's going to wander into the ranch and just grab this female there, that female there, and take him into the lab or whatever he had at the ranch that served as a spot for examining his cattle, his two cows, his breeding cows. So that's similar in a way. It's almost a similar function. The only thing I caution your listeners is don't assume that you can apply human ways of thinking about these things because although there's a metaphorical analogy to it, the fact is that anything that's non-human necessarily will not think like a human because of the way they evolved, the way their senses developed and the way their senses provide information into whatever neurological complex neurological cognitive system organ in their bodies, which we would call a brain. So they're not going to have the same ways or methods and frame of mind and processes to think and rationalize the way humans do because of the environment they came from.

(01:13:16):

So we can't assume that Now if you're thinking they're a rogue covert operation of some sort, whether military or non-state actors, sure they're going to behave like humans do. They're going to operate like humans do. But if you're going to take the hypothesis that this isn't human, then don't overlay human thinking and human framework or human frame of mind, I should say, and human theories and human explanations and speculations on what they're doing because what they're doing, you do not know. They haven't communicated that to us. We have no idea what that's about. We could speculate endlessly,

Speaker 4 (01:13:53):

And that's a hard part.

Eric Davis (01:13:54):

Got To be very cautious about that.

Speaker 4 (01:13:56):

It's a hard part with speculation, especially with science. We don't know what we don't know. And typically the answers are things we can't even speculate because we don't know.

Eric Davis (01:14:04):

Yeah, we do know one thing. They're there, they're doing something. We don't know their origin because they don't want to communicate that to, right.

Speaker 4 (01:14:12):

What about the crashes? There's been some references. I'm pretty skeptical when it comes to alleged UFO crashes, but I think you've made some comments. Maybe some others that have worked with atypical have made comments that there may be a program to look into that or there may have been crashes. You all feel,

Eric Davis (01:14:33):

Yeah, there have been crashes. The superpowers on the earth have had their share of crashes and they have recovered the vehicles from their crashes. So that's why Shakti Lee and I agree that even though these things behave like a conscious spiritual psychic entity, they do have a advanced technology. They have hardware and there's a craft and there's occupants or e knots that he calls them that Jacque Lee calls 'em ephe knots. So there's e Knotts running these craft, whatever they may be. And he likes to make an analogy of these beings to the little people or the fairies of Europe and Ireland and Magonia, remember that, the passport to Magonia one of his books and that kind of thing. So that's fair enough. So anyway, so yeah, if they have that technology, we do too. And it's a very super sensitive topic because it's something that your listeners are probably going to be shocked at, probably less than 1000 to 100,000 of the United States military.

(01:15:45):

And the government overall doesn't even know about it. Or I'm sorry, I said that contradictory. I said, probably a minute traction, like less than 1000th or 100000th of the people with the need to know access, need to know authorization and security clearances to be involved with that type of work are the only ones that know the vast majority of the rest of the government really doesn't know. And that's why one hand, like the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing virtually because of the stove piping that goes on in compartmentalized programs, and you just can't knock on doors and say, Hey, here's who I am. I've got clearances but not the right ones. I don't have the need to know, but I want to know. So can you tell me and you're going to be lied to because that's the rule. You don't want to tell the enemy anything in this guy who's knocking on your door asking you about UFO crashes could be an asset for the Soviet Union or the Russian Federation or the Chinese PLA or the Nincompoops over in Iran, in North Korea and so forth.

(01:16:51):

So even if it's an American, you still don't want to answer that question because you don't know who they are and you're not supposed to be revealing that information. So it takes a lot of hard tracking and digging. You have to networking and it can take years and years and years, and then you develop the security clearances and the authorization for need to know that appropriately allow you access to that information. Then you find out, hey, yeah, it's there. It's true. On the other hand, sometimes the information does come out on its own, but it doesn't come out in the way that ufology likes to fantasize about it. It comes out only to specific people who have specific talents and skills who have security clearances. They may not have the need to know, but they could have the need to know if they were presented with that requirement or if they were presented by a crash retrieval program and saying, Hey, I want to bring in gentleman X, Y, Z.

(01:17:53):

He's got the security clearance, but he doesn't have the need to know. I want to give him the need to know because I need his talent to help us solve this problem with the crash retrieval, reverse engineering studies. So then they will do that. Other times - that's the official way of doing it. That's how you officially get brought in. The other unofficial way is, again, you build a level of trust among certain individuals and people within the network who after a few years of knowing them, you work with them. They know who you are, they know what you're capable of, they know your competencies and they want to bring the topic up on an informal basis with you. Sometimes not even on an informal basis. They may want to bring the topic up outside the realm of the security apparatus, but within a SCIF in other words, there's going to be no passing of security clearances to establish that I have, am going to be allowed to be read in on the crash approval program, but they'll bring me into a SCIF and want to talk informally in the SCIF about it and say, well, this is what we can tell you, but there's things that we can't tell you.

(01:18:58):

And we can tell you those things if you can get the next level security and authorization to get the need to know, and then we can do business with you. But before we get to that point, here's what we can tell you without having to cross that red line of the need to know and the proper clearances. So you work this stuff out over a number of years, you build networks and you find the right people, and then you don't do it by knocking on doors. You do it just through the happenstance of having a contract with somebody or a subcontract and you're interfacing with them. And then lo and behold, you find out they're the vice president or the president of one of the legacy aerospace corporations, and they happened to be a PhD of sort of some discipline, a STEM discipline, all in their own court.

(01:19:45):

And it just so happens that they were a guy that worked on the crash retrieval program. Oh, lo and behold, and then they find out that you're working in UFOs on the UFO subject for a DOD program. And they say, well, that's wonderful. You're officially a government contractor or subcontractor, and you're working with another aerospace company and you're working on UFOs. Well, guess what? We did it too. And we don't do it now, but we did it in the past and here's what we can tell you off the record, and here's what we can, and you'll have to go another step before we can tell you what it is on the record. But it has to be through that. Again, you have to have the right clearances. You have to have the authorization for the need to know, and then you can get the full story.

(01:20:28):

So it's a very complex process. The way Steve Greer went about it through his disclosure program that was called the shotgun approach. The shotgun approach means he was putting himself out there during the 1990s saying, talking about crash retrievals. And I won't go through his whole story, I'm sure you've already covered it or other people have covered it. But one thing led to another, and he was like a bar magnet tracking all these retirees from various parts of the government, US military, who had some knowledge about the UFO subject and the crash reval subject in particular. And a good majority of them were crackpots. They were phonies, but there was a small number of them that were the real deal. And so he successfully picked up a very small number of them and got some information. And now as to the veracity and quality of that information, that's another story. But he did get some interesting information. Okay.

Speaker 4 (01:21:29):

So can you share with us who you think might've been the real deal?

(01:21:33):

Could you share with us who you think might've been the real deal out of his witnesses?

Eric Davis (01:21:37):

No, no, no, no. What I mean is the

Speaker 4 (01:21:39):

Information,

Eric Davis (01:21:41):

The information was verifiable. In other words, once people looked into it, they said, yeah, this is realistic. Whereas a good chunk of his disclosure witnesses, you had middle road guys, they had some information, but it was too peripheral. It was just anecdotal. And then you had the guys that were real liars. He's got a chunk of liars out there that real, that I don't know how much effort he spent on vetting any of those people. And I'm not going to name names as to who they are, and it's not important because that doesn't, the fact that they have no real information, it's noise. We are dealing with signal. We're interested in signaling science folks, not the noise, check the noise. So he did have a small signal of people that had verifiable information, and unfortunately that's, like I said, it's the shotgun approach. They came forward, they gave him information that was freely given to him, but it was after the fact.

(01:22:41):

It was nothing that could be acted on. The people that gave him information were, they weren't directly involved with crash retrieval at all. They actually were either peripheral or they heard it from somebody reliable. So the vertical information was high quality, but they were not firsthand people. You know what I mean? People with firsthand knowledge or firsthand exposure to this whole subject. So he got pretty close, but that's the shotgun approach. That's where you're going to shoot the shotgun. Your pellets are going to hit all over the wall, and there's going to be a small part of the wall where the pellets hit the right targets and all the rest of the pellets, pretty much only just a few pellets hit the right target and all the rest of the pellets just randomly hit a bunch of bad targets.

Speaker 4 (01:23:30):

And the hard part is that the target's invisible. We don't know. All we have is the spread of shotgun spray, but we don't know where the target is.

Eric Davis (01:23:41):

So here's the thing that you should know is that the crash retrieval program is very small program. It is not a massive, huge government infrastructure. It's a very poorly funded program, and it hasn't actually, probably hasn't had any money for a while. I do know that the program was terminated in 1989 for a lack of progress in reverse engineering. Anything that they had, any of the hardware that they had, and they'll resurrect it every maybe so often, so many years go by and they'll try it again and they just don't succeed. The compartmentalization is a killer. Scientists cannot communicate with other scientists to get help. It's like I'm doing this first semester differential calculus homework problem. I'm doing the rocket equation, and I am stuck on the boundary condition so I can come up with the right solution that gives me the right answer to the propellant mass flow rate.

(01:24:41):

And I'm having a hard time. So what do I got to do? I'm missing something. I just don't know what I'm supposed to do with this and to be able to solve this differential equation. So I got to call my buddy who's in my class the math with, and he's the one that gets straight. So I'm going to call him on the phone and say, help me with this. This is what I got done and this is what I am stuck on. And he'll explain it to me. Well, if you're in the crash retrieval program or any black program for that matter, and you come up with the roadblock, a technical roadblock, you can't call your best buddy or any expert that you don't know and just call him cold and say, Hey, this is who I am. This is what I'm doing. This is what I'm working on. I'm stuck. What do you suggest I do to get past this roadblock? You can't do that.

Speaker 4 (01:25:24):

Yeah, it's funny. Nick Pope had talked about the same problem when they did the CONINE report. They genuinely had some intelligence people who wanted to look into the issue, but they had no access. They couldn't talk to anybody who had, they weren't cleared for all of these things they wanted to write about. So they just had to speculate.

Eric Davis (01:25:43):

Yeah. And this isn't just unique to the crash approval program. This type of problem is unique to all of the black programs that the DOD has. DHS has them, the military service branches has them, but Department of Energy has their own versions. And the purpose of a black program with the special access program security rep is you've got to limit the information and exposure to the information to as few people as possible in order to produce the maximum security protection against espionage by the enemy. And so that limits who you can work with. That also is clear to know that limits the amount of experts that you can have working with you. And gosh, if your small group of experts are stumped, you're screwed because you basically can't call your buddies or somebody, or somebody you know of who's an expert better than you or a bigger expert on the subject at a university either near you or at a university across the country.

(01:26:46):

You can't call those guys. You can't even read 'em in because you're not supposed to acknowledge some of, most of these black programs are not supposed to be acknowledged. So for that basis, you don't legitimately exist. So you can't tip off the university expert that there's a program by calling him and saying, I'm stuck on something. You just can't do it. If it's really dire and it's a problem that really the expertise is desperately needed outside of the cleared group, then the program manager and the security officer will write a justification to go reach out to the university expert and read them in on the program. And they'll have to be given security clearances and sign the NDA, fill out the SF 86 and all those forms and get the DD 2 54 filled out. And then they'll be told, you die with this information. You can never talk about it until after you die.

(01:27:42):

Until after you're dead. So that's how that works. And it happens in cruise missile programs. It happens mostly programs involving covert clandestine operations and their logistics. It happens with nuclear weapons development and deployment. It happens with intelligence operations and it happens with technology development. And the interesting thing is today there's a big move away from special access programs. They're extremely costly to maintain, extremely costly. Let me tell you this, the cost to maintain information personnel and physical security for a special access program can be tens of times larger than the cost of the program itself. So let's say the program is building the B 21 bomber, right? Let's just assume, let's say for the sake of argument, the bomber project is 50 billion total. That's probably not even reasonable. But I'll just say that for figure, the security for that could be as much as 10 times higher. I mean, it could be stretched out over a number of years, of course, not all at once. So it could be as much as 10 times highers because you've got to maintain all kinds of security Now. That's the Hypothetical.

Speaker 4 (01:28:51):

Wow.That's amazing. So we're pretty much out Of time.

Eric Davis (01:28:54):

Okay.

Speaker 4 (01:28:55):

Yeah. So I want to ask you one last question, and it has to do with the technology development you had just mentioned. But essentially the goal, I think it's been your goal and Hal's goal, and it's To The Stars goal, is to actually use what you've learned from the observation of the phenomena to develop a technology. Do you think that's possible? And is that possible in the near time?

Eric Davis (01:29:24):

It's hard to predict. It's really hard to predict. It probably is long term, not near term. Some of these projects that were, like, for example, that's what the 38 papers that the DIA wanted in their tasking through Bigelow aerospace advanced space studies contract was to take the physics and engineering of 2009 and 2010, extrapolate it to 2050. Are we going to be able to have a physics and engineering and a technology industrial base that'll produce a vehicle that'll match the tic-TACS by 2050? Because what if the TIC-Tacs decide all of a sudden to turn against us and they use their advanced weaponry, whatever they have, and start hurting people, start destroying things. I mean, we haven't seen that happen, but we've seen hints of that during Blue Books investigation of the Northern Tier stack encounters with the giant UFOs that shut down their warhead navigation systems. And that happened multiple times. That happened in the late sixties, and it happened in the mid seventies.

(01:30:28):

And so we know that they're quite capable of rendering our nuclear warheads and ICBMs useless, which is really dangerous because if the Soviet Union had decided to launch a war right then and there, just coincidentally, the damn UFOs had rendered it impossible for us to do a counterstrike because our goddamn ICBMs up in the Northern Tier were shut down. So that's an example of when it gets bad. And then there's COIs. COIs is an example where the box shaped UFOs, I think called Chupa, were actually killing some people and injuring large numbers of people. And they were using beams to do it. And I'm sure you're familiar with the COIs case from the 1970s. I think it was

Speaker 4 (01:31:09):

Somewhat

Eric Davis (01:31:11):

What that was, project plate, that's what the Brazilians called Project plate, I believe. So the Brazilian Air Force, so the UFOs have not been benevolent. They have not shown any brotherly space, brotherly love and peace type movements toward us. It's all been just hide and seek, hide and seek. We use stealth as much as possible so that humans don't see us in the environment. And then when we want to expose ourselves, we expose ourselves, do our little fun games, and then take off. And they may be testing our technology, may be testing in the US Navy's capabilities when they do this. And also they've done it with the Air Force too. So what are they doing it for? Well, again, they're not humans. So they don't think like humans, they're doing it for whatever in case they decide to become aggressive, we're screwed. Basically. We don't have aircraft that can match them.

(01:32:05):

We haven't shot at 'em. The Nimitz was out on a certification training to get certified to go deploy the Persian Gulf in November, 2004. And so for the certification training, they just have their fighters taken off the carrier deck of Nimitz and flying around doing maneuvers, but they're not armed because they're not supposed to be. You don't want them shooting at their fellow planes, not a red. I think they might've had red team blue team things going on, or they might've just been doing routine, but you can't have ammunition from that, right? When they want to do bombing and straying, they do that out at the Nevada Air Force weapons testing range near the test site, and that's where they can do all the straying and bombing they want with subordinates. But when you're over the ocean and you're near ships and you've got your buddies in the air and a red team blue team type configuration, you can't have lib orates. They had no way of shooting 'em down. They were asked if they were armed so they could attempt to shoot one down or just at least send off a missile or fire some guns to kind of scare the UFO into responding. And the pilot said, no, we're not armed. We don't have anything. They couldn't shoot death. So that was a test that could not be performed to determine whether you could shoot one down.

(01:33:28):

So we just dunno, but you got to worry about it. That's what intelligence and military doctrine are all about. It's about planning for potentialities and we have to worry about something more advanced, could be overwhelming or military technology. And so we've got to be able to extrapolate to 2050, will our physics be there? Will our engineering be there? Will our industrial manufacturing technology be there to produce tic-TAC type technologies? And on the flip side of that, boy, that would be wonderful if we could get there because commercially it would revolutionize transportation and energy on the earth for all countries. So TTSA is looking to benefit. That's a public benefit corporation. So they're looking to benefit the public with this. We're not looking at making weapons. The military needs to look at making the weapons, and that's why we had the 38 papers.

Speaker 4 (01:34:13):

Exactly. So that was a lot of help. That was a lot of information. Thank you so much. It's great that you talk fast because there's a lot of information to convey, but it was an absolute pleasure to have you on, and I hope we can have you on again one day.

Eric Davis (01:34:28):

Oh, you're welcome. Thank you very much, and I enjoyed helping you out with your show. We'll reconnect in the future.

Speaker 4 (01:34:34):

Thank you so much for Eric Davis coming on the show. Really important to have him at this moment in time because of all this exciting stuff going on, and he's a key player when it comes to all of this, having worked for Bigelow for many, many years, and then also involved with the AIP program, some of this Pentagon work. So his insight is absolutely invaluable, and we got a lot of great news right there. So thank you so much to Eric Davis.