2018-07-29 - Erica Lukes / Expanding Frontiers

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Erica Lukes (00:01:01):

Well, good afternoon, good evening, my friends. I'm Erica Lukes. I was happy to be here on a Friday evening. Tonight's show is going to be off the charts. I am thrilled to have Dr. Eric Davis here. We've had a big week in the UFO community with the announcement yesterday from to the Stars Academy announcing the Adam Research Project, and I'm reading this from to the Stars Academy's website. They announced the flagship research program, the Adam Research Project, and our partnership with Earth Tech International, a pioneering research organization in Austin, Texas at the forefront of next generation science and technology project. Adam, an acronym for acquisition and Data analysis of materials will focus on the collection and scientific evaluation of material samples obtained through reliable reports of advanced aerospace vehicles of unknown origins. We're going to talk a little bit about that new announcement that will be later in the show, but we're going to talk, spend the first hour talking about a subject that is very close to my heart, which is Skin Walker Ranch, something that Dr. Davis has a lot of information to share with us.

(00:02:16):

Dr. Eric Davis is the Chief Science Officer of Earth Tech International and the Institute for Advanced Studies of Austin. Dr. Davis's research specializations include breakthrough propulsion physics for interstellar flight, interstellar flight science, beamed energy propulsion, advanced space, nuclear power and propulsion, directed energy, weapons, future and transformational technology, general relativity theory, quantum field theory, quantum gravity theories, experimental quantum optics, and much more. Dr. Davis's research activities include megawatt class laser repulsion physics systems, designs and performance metrics and mission applications for the United States Air Force Laser Light Craft program, quantum optics tomography experiments to measure negative vacuum energy studies on multilayered quantum vacuum structure and its applications. There is just so much more I've got. And Dr. Davis, I'm just going to let you finish that because I look at your bio and there is nothing that you haven't done. And specifically, I mean you are Go ahead. You're an adjunct professor of Cosmology and Strings group at the Center for Astrophysics Space Physics and Engineering Research at Baylor University. I mean, just go ahead, fill us in.

Eric Davis (00:03:42):

Okay. Well, hi. It's good to be on your show and yeah, I've done a lot of work in mostly focusing on areas and having to do with advanced space propulsion, interstellar flight related technologies. My main focus is Interstellar flight because of my work with Mark on the NASA Breakthrough Propulsion Physics program during the period of 1996 to 2002 and the lower scale level, that program that continued with little funding from 2002 until Mark and I got our i a book, frontiers of Propulsion Science published in 2009. So during that period of time while I was working for Bob Bigelow at ns and while I was working after that for the Air Force Research Lab at Edwards Air Force Base, California, and then following on with my employment here at the Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin, which is the theoretical arm of Vertech International Incorporated with my boss Hal Poff.

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So my whole career since the mid nineties has all been focusing on all of this work. And I have a background in astrophysics. That's what I got my doctorate at the University of Arizona in 1991. I got my bachelor's in physics in mathematics there two years before. And then the two years before that I graduated from Phoenix College with an associate of arts degree. And so my whole life has been interested in interstellar flight contact with aliens, UFOs, exotic propulsion, material sciences and things like that. And to get a good handle on a very multiple, how do I want to say it? Okay, multidisciplinary topics such as interstellar flight and search for extraterrestrial intelligence and contact with them and UFOs and whatnot. That's very multidisciplinary and a physicist who wants dive into a multidisciplinary set topics like that to a background of chose breakthrough propulsion physics, which is the genre or the umbrella category for everything.

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Underneath that was my specializations in nuclear propulsion power or bean energy propulsion, which is what laser rockets and microwave rockets and light craft are and so forth and so on. And then there's all the various ingredients that go into these things. Like one of my big push in theoretical research is in faster than light space propulsion using Einstein's general theory of relativity and quantum field theory. So that addresses the topics of wormholes and war drives, which a lot of people out there who are members of Muon are familiar with. My thousand one and 2013 Muon Symposium talks on and my proceedings papers on and they moved. They're familiar with my work at NS on that topic as well as my work for the Air Force and for help. And I also carried that forward with the work on the AIP program when we were subcontractors to Biglow Aerospace advanced Space studies.

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And so that's what the focus of my career is. It's just you. You've got to know a lot of different things and I have a lot of different interests and I don't like to keep too much of a specialty because that'll narrow me down too much in a career and in a professional career in physics, that's not too good of an idea to be stuck in one specialty. You want to broaden your specialties out to cover many different areas so you can contribute as widely as you possibly can to various different types of subjects. And I happen to like nuclear propulsion, anti-matter and bean energy propulsion, work drives and wormholes time travel, things like that.

Erica Lukes (00:07:44):

And it's just incredible to hear everything that you've accomplished. And in the broad, like you say, the broad spectrum that you cover with all of your knowledge base. I have to ask you because as you know, I live in Utah and Skin Walker Ranch and that whole U basin has been something that I have been researching. You have been researching it for much longer and have a much better handle on what has gone on there. But when did you first come into contact with Robert Bigelow?

Eric Davis (00:08:18):

I was in South Korea working at the eighth fighter wing for the United States Air Force and US Forces Korea. And I was there as a University of Maryland professor teaching college courses and physical sciences, mathematics, computer sciences and physics. And I was also doing some other work that I'm not going to get into, which is on the classified aspect of work that we do out there in Asia when you're surrounded by enemy nations. So you can more or less gather what that entails. So I was out there teaching and I had a four year contract and at the end of my first year, they had no teaching work for me for the summer, which was kind of bad. My wife and my three little kids were a step back in Tucson and my wife was having to work a full-time job in a part-time job to help make and salaried was okay, but it wasn't spectacular and I was getting really underpaid for my degree in education for that type of job.

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So I said, Hey, it was a great experience, but I don't think I can do this three more years. I'm going to miss too much of my family. I can only go home twice a year and whatnot. And it's certainly no good to sit around when I don't have any income for a summer. So I picked up my issue of Physics Today magazine, I don't remember which month it was. It might've been the month of May. And I saw a very interesting job ad that was posted by the National Institute for Discovery Science and it had some very intriguing language in it, and I don't remember it now, but what the ad was, it was pretty lengthy ad and they were looking for top flight research scientists to be directors at this institute to study the foundations of space time and the universe. And they even mentioned the physics of consciousness and so forth.

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And like I said, I can't remember that that was over 20 years ago. So it really intrigued me. It was a private institute in Las Vegas. My wife was born and raised, partly raised there from birth before moving to Arizona. And my dad and stepmom moved there to go to work after they got married in Phoenix where we're from originally in 68. So my dad started a international harvester truck dealership with his partners there and my stepmom worked with them for about a year or so. And then she got a job at the University of Nevada Las Vegas, which she retired from after, oh, over 30 years. So we've got family. So I have family. My half brother and sister were born and raised in Las Vegas. My wife had ex sister-in-laws brother-in-laws and nieces and nephews and friends of her older brothers and sisters that they grew up grew in north Las Vegas.

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So that would be the ideal place. I used to spend my summers with my dad and stepmom because they had custody of me during my youth. And so I'd stay in Phoenix to go to school when I lived with my mother, and then I would be in Las Vegas during the holidays and summer breaks from school. So I left Las Vegas, it was a great place and I said, Hey, this is a great job opportunity. Mom and dad live there, half of our relatives are there and that would be a great job opportunity. So I applied. I applied, and the next thing I know I got a phone call from John Alexander and he interviewed me on the phone and he said that one of the members of the science advisory board named Hal put off, has a background in interests that are very similar to mine.

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And he thought that the two of us would get along really great and would work together very well. And so I think he talked to the other members of the science advisor board as well as how possibly that's what I thought. He was inferring that he checked with them and he shared my CV with them. That's a curriculum beta, which you have is academic. You have real long resumes. These aren't two page or one page resumes. These are very long because they contain our list of publications and awards and honors and education and everything else. So the next thing I know is I get a call from John Alexander and he said that he's setting me up with the phone interview with Bob Bigelow. And he said that what happened is is that he showed my CV to Bob Biglow and Bob all of a sudden had my CV go down from the bottom of a large high stack of CVS up to the top.

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And so Bob wanted to interview me right away. We had the interview by phone, and Bob really liked to talk. Bob is really a laid back regular guy, and that's who he is. This is the guy who used to make me tuna salad sandwiches at the Utah Ranch during our field trips up there, or he'd make me a bowl of cereal. So you're talking about a billionaire who's in the apartment and daily, weekly, monthly hotel business. And he had all kinds of guest hotels and other properties scattered all around the western United States. And here he is making me a bowl of cereal or tuna salad sandwich, so for lunch or breakfast or whatever. And he'd take us out to dinner all the time. So he's a regular guy. He just called me up and we just had a great conversation. And then the next thing I know is he wanted me to come to Las Vegas to meet him in person for a final interview.

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And we did the final interview and that was my first meeting with him in person at Parkhouse, which is the name of his Tudor style headquarters building on Eastern Avenue. And that was really a great experience. We had a great time. And he told me he hired me right away. So he gave me about a week and a half or a couple of weeks. This was in the beginning of July, 1996, so at the beginning of July, 1996. And I needed time to be able to pack everything up that I needed and move. My start date was for July 14th, and that was my first day at work. The rest of the story is in Kelleher Naps book Hunt for Skin Walker.

Erica Lukes (00:14:25):

And I just want to throw in there that Kelleher, he responded to the ad as well from my understanding.

Eric Davis (00:14:33):

Yeah, he did. And so did Dr. Il George Nette. George often wrote it. George George is a world renowned Romanian veterinarian pathologist, microbiologist and of books, volumes of books and technical peer-reviewed journal papers. And he had decades of awards and honors, and he was a member of over a dozen professional societies in his field. George specialized in bovine and avian diseases and pathologies, and Bob hired him to be the veterinarian who did investigate cattle mutilations with Colin Kher at N. And so the three of us applied. I don't know how many other people applied. I don't know how many other people got interviewed and didn't make the cut because I wasn't informed of that. And I didn't ask, I didn't think to ask. So yeah, Colin Kelleher, myself and George, Annette responded to the ad. Now I responded to the ad in today. I don't know where Colin and George found the ad or how they saw it and whatnot, but they applied and we got hired.

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I was the first one there two weeks later. The first science advisory board meeting happened at the end of July, and that was also the first day that George and Colin began their jobs. So that was the first time we got to meet just before the end of July. And then the following month we took our first field trip to see lefty leaven good at his pine Landia laboratory in Grass Lake Michigan to talk about the crop formation stocks that he had been experimenting with in microwave oven. And then when we got back from that, we were invited in to listen to Bob talk to the owner of the Utah Ranch because Bob had been connected up to him through I think George Snap and Shelley Wadsworth and Shelley Wadsworth with Bob's Field investigator up in northeast Nevada near the Utah border. And I think she used to live closer to Vegas, but had moved all the way up that way later on in life.

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But she was one of Bob's longtime investigators. So the ranch got a high profile, got communicated over to Bob. Bob was on the phone with the owner of the ranch. And even though his name is Common Knowledge, I'm not going to mention out of deference to him and his family because we had a great relationship with them and they took a lot of prep in their community, especially his wife from her employers and their kids got bullied a lot in school where they were going to school in Ballard, in the Ballard area. So anyway, so we're there, and Bob's talking to the owner of the ranch and he's interviewing them and they're going back and forth about all the phenomenon. The owner was kind of summarizing what was going on. And then that was the end of that. And the next thing I know about a week later, we hear that Bob had bought the ranch.

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So it was happening very fast. And within another week or two, he bought the manufactured double white home that got delivered to the ranch and set up next to the ranch family's home. And that was going to become our observation house, our place where we would stay. It's four bedrooms. Let's see, I remember four bedrooms, two bathrooms, a kitchen and a living room and a laundry room and a mud room and a porch was built on the back facing the pasture and it was great. And so it's like one thing after the other. So anyway, my experience meeting Bob Bigelow was a lot of fun. My dad and stepmom had known all about Bob and his wife Diane since the days they first moved to Vegas in 68. And that's because Bob and Diane moved in the local Las Vegas business community and they have the local business associations that your business people belong to. And my dad was the secretary treasurer of the New and used Car Dealers Association because he was the co-owner and vice president and secretary treasurer of McCann International Trucks. And so they ran in the same social circles. And my dad would used to see Bob and his wife Diane, or occasionally when I was there in the summers, and I'd go out with dad and John McCandless to have lunch at the Frontier Hotel or the Riviera. There'd be Diane Bigelow walking in with her entourage of fellow business ladies and girlfriends, and they'd be going off to have a private luncheon of their own. And everybody would say Hi Diane. And Diane would say hi back and whatnot. And she was a fiery, redheaded, beautiful woman.

Erica Lukes (00:19:21):

It's interesting to hear, and I think it's important to hear those personal stories because we have built up such a mythology around Bigelow and how sometimes on social media or in a community when we don't have all the facts, we create these characters that aren't necessarily based on factual information. Yeah, that's right. And so I think these are important things to clarify and I appreciate that. I want to also say that Zach VanEck was the Desiree News reporter that first broke the story about Bigelow Ranch, and he has been on my show once to talk about all of that, and that was amazing to see how quickly Bob moved in there, purchased the property, and then you guys were ready to go. So after your first initial trip to the ranch, what happened then and how did you formulate a team and a strategy?

Eric Davis (00:20:22):

Well, as a matter of fact, you're right about Zach Van Nick, and we met him and we talked to him many times and we got copies of the de newspaper articles that he sent us about his reporting on the ranch and the owners and their family and the events. And that's primarily what prompted this information about the ranch to get transmitted to Bob over in Las Vegas. So Zach is a really good guy. And anyway, so our first trip to the ranch was very early in September, and we began a series of twice monthly week long trips. We would hop on Bob's Jet Cosmos, which was a British hawker jet, and Bob would go with us the first few times and we would do night watches out there, and we had no equipment to start with, so we got in trouble with the science advisory board because Bob didn't equip us beforehand.

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Instead, we just kind of made the rush to get down there, check out the new house that was installed, make sure everything was in order, and then do chores around the property to get a lay of the land and understand its geology, its weather, and always climate, I should say, the cattle that are grazing there and whatnot and so forth. And so we spent the first few weeks there between September and October, and it wasn't until probably a few months later that we started getting our first equipment, so we were going raw. We were just going with our notepads and our pencils and very little of anything else. And the first thing that happened on our first trip there, I believe it was, or maybe it was the second trip in September, I saw a craft out through the kitchen window on the far west end.

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It was beyond, it looked like it was at the far, far west end of the ranch actually, and it was a clear sky. It was that night you could see the stars up in the sky and the weather was pretty calm and there was not much of any wind. And I see this amber colored bright light appear out of nowhere, and it's just hovering over high up, oh, maybe about 30 degrees above the ground, and it's very big and it's very bright, and at that distance in range, I knew it was far away because it started descending and it descended and continued coming down and was still illuminated in front of the background mountain range, which was probably another 30 miles west, if not further. And so it came down. It was definitely in front of the mountain range, and it was definitely on the ranch or over the ranch because by the time it started getting low, it got to the tree top.

Erica Lukes (00:23:10):

And I've got to cut you off right there. Of course, the best part, the juiciest part, we will be right back. We're going to take our first break. I'm Erica Lukes on UFO classified here with Dr. Eric Davis. Stick around. You're not going to want to miss tonight.

Speaker 5 (00:23:25):

Standby. This is UFO classified with Erica Lukes. Erica Lukes. The phone lines are open now at 7 0 2 4 2 5 9 2 3 0. That's 7 0 2 4 2 5 92 30. Worldwide callers use Skype name KCOR radio, more UFO classified UFO classified with Erica Lukes on the KCOR Digital Radio Network after this.

Erica Lukes (00:28:04):

Welcome back on Erica Lukes. I was happy to be here on a Friday night and to look into the chat room and see my friends. I want to give a big shout out to Douglas, to Gabrielle, to Bruce, to Mark and of course my favorite person in the world who's helped me so much. Northern UFOs. Thank you for getting my radio shows out to YouTube so it can reach a larger audience. All of you know that I'm here because this is a subject that is of critical importance, and we deserve to get good information, and that's what we're doing here tonight. I am joined tonight by Dr. Eric Davis, who has been the topic of discussion as of late. We had, as I mentioned at the beginning of the show yesterday to the Stars Academy, announced the Adam Research Project. We're going to talk a bit about that in the next segment, but now we're talking about Skin Walker Ranch, which I think anybody across the planet, everyone should know what Skin Walker Ranch is. It is a 480 acre ranch in the Uinta Basin. It has long been held in our hearts and intrigue. People want to go there, see what's going on. Dr. Eric Davis has been telling us about his first encounter where he is standing and looking out a window and observed this large amber sphere. And so Dr. Davis, continue with that story, please.

Eric Davis (00:29:36):

Okay, and I'll wrap it up quick. The big light, and it was so dark I couldn't see a craft, but it was consistent with it being a light being emitted by a craft. So consistent with thousands of years of recorded UFO side, actually at least Shocklee and Chris Beck's recent book, wonder in the Sky documented 1500 years worth of UFO siding. So this is consistent with that. Anyway, the big amber light, and it had finally descended below the tree level. And so it was definitely on the ranch because I could see the light shining through the trees through the grove of trees on the far west end of the ranch. And it just sat there and it just sat there for the longest time. And in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, I think it was a 30 minute length of time and nothing happened.

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It just sat there. You kind of lost sight of it because it might've been on the ground at that point. And the brush and foliage was just too thick to see all of the light. I could see a little bit of something. And then I think after 30 minutes or so had passed, all of a sudden we saw the light again and it was very bright, but it had moved to significant distance horizontally to the left of its landing position. And it stayed on for a long time, and it wounded off. And given how far it was, it was not a safe place for us to go hiking out there because there is some really rushed, rugged territory out on that end of the ranch where you can drop off to about a 20 foot drop into a crevice where a creek is running through and get killed.

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So it's not really good territory. And also, it's also a part of the ranch where if you walk out there with any netting over your head, you'll probably have about a hundred mosquitoes per square centimeter all over your face and in your eyes and everywhere else. So it's a real bad place to be unless you're prepared to go. And we didn't have our coveralls or any protection for our head, and we certainly did not remember to take any mosquito propelling out there. And that was a big thing we learned very early on at the ranch.

Erica Lukes (00:31:50):

And so oh,

Eric Davis (00:31:52):

And Erica, we saw another sighting of that same type of light in November. In the middle of the night, like about two to 3:00 AM Colin and I are out doing a night watch on the back porch. And that same light came flying out from above. That same type of light came out flying from above the bluff and made a 90 degree turn right over our heads and just kept going in a smooth pattern. And it did not have the lights of any aircraft. I have a private pilot's license, and due to the work I was doing outside of my teaching in Kon in South Korea, I had the opportunity to get to do flight training and simulators for F 16 fighters. And I got to fly in F 16 fighters with instructors. And I also got to fly F 15 fighters in Phoenix, Arizona when I was first getting my pilot's license in junior college. So I'm an experienced aviator. I know what aircraft lights and how they look and how they sound. This was completely silent. There were no running lights and wing lights, tail lights and headlight like you typically see. And it was just that same big, large amber glowing light, and it just flew right over in a 90 degree turn and just kept on going. So that was the second one in November. And then the rest of the story, everybody can find and hunt for the Skin Walker book.

Erica Lukes (00:33:12):

And that is a great book. And I also encourage people to read the Utah UFO display, which was written back in the seventies by Dr. Frank Salisbury with help from Junior Hicks, who is my hero, and I am going to go up and meet with him very soon, but I just want to throw this out there for people who don't know who Junior Hicks or Frank Salisbury. Our Junior Hicks was a science teacher, and back in the sixties, he started collecting UFO reports. And it's an interesting story and I'll have him on so we can explain it to you. But the policeman, tribal police ended up giving him reports, and he has now over 700 reports of really profound encounters in He went to basin, Dr. Frank Salisbury was a botanist who wrote the Utah UFO display. And I've been actually going through his archives at the special collections at the University of Utah. So two really important men, of course, Eric, you know all about them because they, especially junior, we met him. Yeah, yeah,

Eric Davis (00:34:20):

We met him. Yeah, we met with him and he worked with us to do our field investigation. He brought a box over one day containing all of his original case files, every one, I don't remember the number of them now, but it was a small box filled with every single case file that he investigated for 30 years, over 30 years. So over the 30 years from 19 53, 54 to 1984, he kept meticulous records on UFO encounters and events all around the UN Basin. And that information formed the backbone of Frank's book. So I would say Frank's book and the Kelleher Nat book are the two best books to read. You've got an old book and you've got a modern book on the events in the phenomenon that occur in the Valley. Copy compliment each other very well. And so we were in contact with Junior a lot, and he's phenomenal. He's just phenomenal. And it'll be a good show for you to have him on.

Erica Lukes (00:35:18):

I know he's a kind man. And for me, just wanting to research, I just lost you on Bluetooth. Hang on, I'm going to reset. No problem. I was start talking. Sorry

Eric Davis (00:35:29):

About

Erica Lukes (00:35:30):

That. No, that's okay. Cool. Awesome. I, me as a researcher, especially here in Utah, it is hard to get information to get access to researchers. And he has been an inspiration and should be to anybody all over the world who cares about this. I don't know if, I mean, honestly, and you've mentioned this before, if it weren't for Junior Hicks, nobody truly would know about the importance of Skin Walker Ranch or the UTA Basin.

Eric Davis (00:36:05):

Yeah, that's right. And not only that, all the UFO and Bigfoot events that occurred in the UTA Valley, because they had very spectacular cases that Frank Salisbury used junior's reports to document in his book. And he even has a front matter page that shows all the different type of UFOs that had been seen. And I mean, we're talking like the sheriff, the chief deputy sheriff, the vernal police officers and chief and the mayor of Vernal and city engineers, really well-educated, high caliber people as well as school teachers, business folks, regular folks, ranchers and farmers. They had seen so much of this phenomenon. Many of them had ably witnessed a single one. And so there was a lot of cross corroboration. And so Junior brought his box of reports over and let me take them back to Las Vegas. So I took them to Las Vegas, and I made a photocopy of every page.

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I bound our copies into a big notebook binder, and then I took his box back to him on my next field trip. And then what I did is on a later longer stretch back home in Vegas, I spent a great deal of time going through the statistical analysis of every single aspect that was reported by witnesses in each and every report. I created a pattern analysis like what the CIA does and intelligence collection and analysis and frequency plots and whatnot. Everything I could think of to help analyze the phenomenon's pattern and see if we can make sense of anything. And it was a phenomenal thing. So it was really a blessing to get to work with him.

Erica Lukes (00:37:49):

Oh, he's a wonderful human being. And I know for Junior and Frank Salisbury, they were both devoutly Mormon. Frank passed away a few years ago, and that was something that was very, it's been a difficult process for them through their lives to have to work to reconcile the religious viewpoints with what they're witnessing or hearing about. And I have to ask you, so let's go back to the sightings that you had after you had the sightings, what was your process? Did you go back to Las Vegas and how did you input the data after the sighting?

Eric Davis (00:38:32):

What we did is we were learning, we went, because you don't have a group of scientists like us with experience already in hand on this field. We were not in UFOLOGY before we got hired by Bob Colin Kelleher came from the National Jewish Cancer Research Center at the University of Colorado in Boulder, Georgia net came from South Dakota. He was working for the state's veterinarian office, and I came from the University of Maryland University College and was a subcontractor to the US Forces Command through the Pacific Air Force. So I'm an astrophysicist. Colin is a microbiologist, immunologist slash biochemist cellular biologist. I mean, those guys have long professional interdisciplinary titles there. And I told you about George already. And so we have varying, varying interest or exposure to UFOs. Column had a lot of exposure in England to the proclamation situation. And I think even Bob Bigelow had hired him to be a temporary short-term investigator on contract in June of the year that we got hired.

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June of 96, the month before he got hired, and I think he actually probably got hired that month. And he was in Boulder, Colorado at the time. And Colin comes from Dublin, Ireland and had lived in Canada with his Canadian wife and their kids before immigrating to the United States. And George came from Romania and had been in the United States. He got away from SKU's communist government. He had to run across the border to escape possible assassination as an intellectual. So he ran across the border and had to leave half of his family behind, and he immigrated to the United States as a for asylum refugee status. And he stayed in the United States thereafter until communism fell in eastern Europe, and his wife and kids were able to come back to the United States and join him. So we had very backgrounds, and George had no background or exposure to paranormal and UFOs column follows meditation and al of consciousness and the physics of consciousness and the medicine of consciousness and the genetics and microbiology of consciousness. So he's already ahead of us quite a bit on that. And I had an interest in UFOs dating back since middle school, and my wife and I had our first joint UFO close encounter experience in 1989 when I was just finishing up my PhD at the University of Arizona. So we had a UFO encounter. And so that was my first exposure to a real UFOs in 1989, and I was 28 years old.

(00:41:29):

No, actually, I'm sorry, I take that back. That would've been in 91. That was in 1991 when that happened. Sorry about that. So that was in 1991 when that happened. Oh no, I got to take that back again. Boy, it's been so long I can't hear now. I think it was 1990, so it was May, 1990, so that's when it happened. Okay. It was before I graduated with my doctorate and I walked in through commencement following that episode in May of 1990. I think I went through commencement in May 91 because there was a long delay in scheduling my PhD oral defense. So anyway, so I'm the only one who came in besides column who had UFO exposure, and I had been a member of ARO in Tucson. Now I grew up in Phoenix, so I had been getting the ARO newsletter, and I had been a member of ARO ever since I saw Bob Gers documentary on television back in 1974. And so I joined, my mother got me subscription to the newsletters and membership as a student and up with it. I went off to college and I just dropped all that and forgot about it because I was too busy doing college calculus and calculus and chemistry and everything.

Erica Lukes (00:42:41):

So I've got to ask you right there, do you know where the A files are? This is the million dollar question

Eric Davis (00:42:47):

Where the ARO files are. I have no idea. Dang. I have no idea. If you really want to know that, then what I can do is I can contact Shock Lee and ask him. He may or may not know, or he may know who has an answer to that question if he doesn't. No.

Erica Lukes (00:43:07):

Okay.

Eric Davis (00:43:08):

So I can find out for you.

Erica Lukes (00:43:09):

Thank you. That would be

Eric Davis (00:43:11):

Good. Yeah, John Schuler, John and Jacque were both members of the mid science advisory board, and we still maintain contact in our private research group. And so I can ask John Schuler maybe he knows. If he doesn't know, he'll know. Who knows?

Erica Lukes (00:43:27):

Okay, thank you. That would be great. That's the million dollar question that some of us want to find out about. And so you had these sightings and you and Cole had an interest in this before you went to work for Bigelow. What was your learning process? How did Bigelow give you information so you could

Eric Davis (00:43:51):

Learn? Well, Bob did not give us any training per se. There wasn't any training at all. I think what we had to do is we were guided by the Mid Science Advisory Board in our field work so that we would go out to the ranch, do field studies there, but that wasn't the only place we went. We did cattle mutilation investigations in New Mexico and other states and other cities and locations and so forth, so including Utah. So George and Colin pretty much invented the animal necropsy protocols. And that followed the forensic procedure of criminal evidence that to be done because you're looking at a murdered animal. It's not a human, but it's been killed deliberately. And so there are forensic techniques and there are veterinarian techniques for doing necropsies out in the field. So Colin and George invented that. They used their talent education and skills to put that together.

(00:44:54):

The UFO side of that, we had to invent as we went along, but we had a lot of guidance from the Science Advisory Board to help us when we were pinging wrong here and there because you had Jacques Lee on the board. And Jacque would pretty much guide us in the best way, best practices for doing UFO investigations in the field, what to do, what not to do, so forth and so on. And we have a little bit of guidance, of course, from John Alexander. He is not a UFO investigator per se, but he has a lot of experience in unusual subjects as we all know from his background and especially military intelligence. And we had Kit Green being a former CIA high level officer, and the number three man at General Motors back in those days. And Hal put off, and he had, HAL wasn't a UFO investigator himself per se, but he had looked into it and he knew all the talent out there.

(00:45:49):

And John Schuler, and of course John Schuler is a UFO investigator. So we also got John's input. So the three of us basically took a lot of guidance from the most experienced members of the NIB Science Advisory Board to help us figure out, guide us in figuring out what the protocols would be, lay down a set procedure standards, and then we started finally getting the instrumentation. And so then we started getting cameras and IT and military class IT T night vision binoculars, like the third generation ones and adapters for the camp quarters. And I outfitted the ranch with a computer weather system. And what else? Oh, I can go on and on about this. This could probably take us a whole other appearance on your show to talk about. Well,

Erica Lukes (00:46:42):

I'll have you

Eric Davis (00:46:44):

Back. That's essentially what happened. Yeah. So we had to invent it as we went along. Basically, there was no guideline. We didn't adopt Muons guideline. I'm sure that there are elements of MUONS guidelines in what we were doing, because I know we did borrow from some of it. There was also project visit, which John Schuler and Al Hold at Johnson Space Center had developed field investigative protocols with the help of the NASA center director that was, I don't remember his name right offhand, but it was the director of the Johnson Space Center back in the seventies and eighties, or at least I think during the seventies and eighties. And they had the very quiet program. It wasn't high profile, and it was not an official arm or official organization of nasa. And this was just a group of the NASA contractors and NASA personnel that got together to investigate some really spectacular close counter cases in Texas. And so we borrowed a lot of that information. So we did a lot of reading. I mean, Bob had a UFO book library, everything on the Paranormal UFOs. And so we read the books, we read all of Jacque fil Lee's books, his case books, forbidden Science and so forth. We read John Schuler's book on cash Landrum and so forth and so on. So we got our ideas, we talked to folks and we put it down into practice.

Erica Lukes (00:48:07):

And so did you ever look to, because project hes over in Norway, was in full swing then. Did you ever do any research about that or hear about it project? Yeah.

Eric Davis (00:48:20):

Yeah. He heslin actually. Yeah, actually, Ling Strand was in the United States with one or two people on his team. And I don't remember the circumstances behind that, but all I knew is we were alerted to that. And maybe if not John Alexander, maybe somebody else on the Mid signs advisory board had arranged for Ling to come and visit us. So he came to visit us and we invited him over to NS and he gave us a presentation on his work. And I don't know whether he was there to seek funding from Bob. I wasn't informed that, but I just received a briefing the rest of us did, about the nature of what he was doing and what he was reporting. And he gave all of his copies of his briefing slides, and it was very interesting work. So we were very familiar with Ling Strand and he knew us, and I think we had some occasional email contact with them through the years.

Erica Lukes (00:49:18):

That's great. I mean, for me as an investigator here trying to learn things, that was one of the things that I discovered. And it was truly, I had to look outside the United States to get good information because what you see here in the United States is such a muddled pile of nonsense. It's hard to find good research.

Eric Davis (00:49:40):

There was an intention at mids for the staff to go overseas to investigate. We had to have a high bar to spend money. And you don't want to spend money on weak cases, and you've got to be very careful because you could waste thousands of dollars transporting between one and three scientists all the way out to Europe or other countries, and they've got to stay there for a week or two and eat and have transportation and gamble money or I'm just kidding, that kind of stuff. And so that gets expensive. So we had to narrow our focus to the close encounter cases that would be the highest reward, but they would have the highest risk associated with them because they have the high risk of possible hoaxes or being a weak case in the end. And we were leaning toward that, but Bob just didn't want to go into that.

(00:50:32):

He was leaning toward it, but he just changed his mind and decided he didn't really want to spend that kind of money doing it. So we pretty much stayed in the United States, and we did not do a lot of traveling everywhere. We set up one 800 number that people can call us on the phone and record their events on our voice message. And then what we could do is we would get their message the next morning at work and take their information down, call 'em on the phone, and then interview them on the phone. And if the case rose to a high its level that it justified spending money to go out there, then we would go out there and investigate it ourselves. And Colin and I, unfortunately, were the victims of such a kind of case in Knox and Montana where we thought we had a really spectacular alien attack of some young folks out in the forest and turned out to be a bunch of kids that were half blacked out from drinking all night and taking drugs. And then we went on a property to, because we were told by the property owner that there were three UFO landing, the crafts, landing pad marks on the dirt. We found it, and it was a definite hoax. One look at it, and I could see that the depression made in the ground was made by a coffee can, and the rocks were not compressed in the soil. They were above all the little rocks and pebbles were above the soil. So immediately I knew it was a hoax.

Erica Lukes (00:52:00):

And I have to say, we've got to go to break. And I just want to say that I'm glad that you have investigated hoaxes as well. That's awesome. I've got so many more questions to ask you. We're going to go to break here pretty quick. I'm Erica Lukes here on KCOR, the best digital broadcasting network on the planet. We'll be back. Listen

Speaker 5 (00:52:21):

Very carefully.

Erica Lukes (00:52:22):

This is

Speaker 5 (00:52:22):

Houston Sagan, please.

(00:52:26):

This is UFO classified live every Friday night, 4:00 PM Pacific, 7:00 PM Eastern, exclusively on the KCOR Digital Radio network. The truth is out there just waiting to be discovered. And now, if you will accompany me on a journey to the future for more information on the host of UFO classified Erica Lukes, upcoming guests, as well as links to the pass shows, visit her website@ufoclassified.com. UFO classified UFO classified UFO classified. This is KCOR, Las Vegas home of the Digital Radio Network, broadcasting from a shq just south of Area 51. Wait, that doesn't exist. This is the KCOR Digital Radio Network. Now for the news,

Speaker 1 (00:53:21):

This landed at a ranch at Corona, New Mexico. The rancher turned it over to the Air Force Rancher. WW Brazil was the man who discovered the software. What I

Speaker 2 (00:53:30):

Thought was a star began coming in my direction at a very rapid rate of speed, the unidentified object,

Speaker 3 (00:53:38):

Which some sources thought might be a blimp, moved slowly down the Pacific Coast from Santa Monica. And this appeared south of

Speaker 4 (00:53:44):

Long Beach. I saw a UFO and it went down the river, turned right at the United Nations, turned left, and then down the river,

Speaker 5 (00:53:58):

UFO classified UFO classified. No more plausible deniability, in fact fiction or the truth you decide. And now the new voice of the high desert, the hostess of UFO classified Erica Lukes.

Erica Lukes (00:54:19):

Welcome back everyone. I'm here tonight with Dr. Eric Davis, who is the Chief Science Officer of Earth Tech, and he is also one of the people that was involved with NS, and he was at Skin Walker Ranch during this big important research study. Right. And if you haven't read Hump for the Skin Walker by George Knapp and Cole Kelleher, you've got to read that. Also, the Utah UFO Display, the U went to Basin is a hot bed of activity. And as Dr. Eric Davis knows, there are other places like that all over the world where we see the same types of phenomena. Dr. Davis is currently involved as an advisor at Skin Walker Ranch under the new ownership in 2016. It was purchased by Advantium, and I have been privy to personally viewing some of the videos and the new evidence that they're obtaining. They are investing a lot of money into research, into installing security systems there, and they have taken a leap forward on their research. I have also heard that there have been people that have been injured and hospitalized on the ranch currently. So we're going to have to talk a little bit about that. But there's a little bombshell for you, Dr. Davis. We were talking about back, looking at Airlink Strand coming over, briefing NS, and then close encounter cases, the 800 number that was set up.

(00:55:59):

Where else did you go when you were looking, because I know that you did the data analysis with Dr. Jacques Veli with regard to all the skin walker information, but there were other locations as well. Where else did you travel to get information? Not Dr. Michael Lee Hill. Was he involved in part of that?

Eric Davis (00:56:22):

Are you talking about investigations? Like field

Erica Lukes (00:56:25):

Investigations? Yep, field investigations.

Eric Davis (00:56:27):

Yep. Oh my gosh. We went down and investigated the Phoenix Lights, Colin and I did, and we investigated George and Colin investigated more cattle mutilations than I was on. We had several trips to Northern New Mexico in the Chia Apache Indian Reservation. The name of the town escapes me now, but it's just very close to Mount Arch. And there were a lot of cattle mutilations out there or in that area. And they had done cattle, mutilation, necropsies, and investigations there. I went on one with Colin when George wasn't available. And then there was other trips that I didn't make, but geez, I'm trying to think. A lot of places in Utah, we used the ranch as a nice base. So we pop over to White Rock, go to Vernal Ballard, gusher, other areas of for De Shane and RT and oh gosh, I can't think of where else, all the way out back to Hebrew. And so there's a big lake out there. I want to say it has the name Strawberry on it. Does that,

Erica Lukes (00:57:41):

Yeah, strawberry Reservoir. Yep. Yep.

Eric Davis (00:57:43):

Yeah, that's it. Okay. So we had cases out there and we did a lot of investigations on a variety of UFOs and Bigfoot cases, and sometimes we had UFO cases where Bigfoot was seen, and sometimes there were just cases where Bigfoot was seen, but there was no UFOs and Col and George were Col and are other field investigators that got hired on later on. One of 'em was named John er. He was a retired FBI special agent. And the other one was Roger Pinson, who came to us from the, well, he was actually living in Las Vegas and had worked for the state law enforcement for a time, but he was a San Diego police officer before that and got injured on the job before moving to Las Vegas. And before that he was Air Force A-F-O-S-I, special agent. So we had those guys working with us with, and so I didn't go on all the places we would send those guys out.

(00:58:38):

So those guys have been out to Highland, Illinois for the 1999 Highland, Illinois, big UFO case that was flying around there outside of St. Louis area. It was, in my recollection, it was in the Illinois, Missouri border area. And so they investigated that. And like I said, we went out early on. We made not one but two trips to see Lefty or Bill Lood as everybody formally knew him, but his nickname was Lefty, and he had his Pine Landia laboratory in Grass Lake Michigan where he two trips out there, oh, I guess late 1996 and another one in 1997. Sometime it was in warm weather. So I think we did it the spring. And we were just talking about pro formation, looking at his latest evidence, looking at what he was experimenting with and some other things that he was coming up with. We didn't do any UFO investigations out there. And we had done a couple of UFO investigations out in Las Vegas and did some up at Mount Wilson, Northeastern Nevada, and drove around Area 51 kind of poked around there to see if we can agitate the wacking hut security guys and see what would happen. Oh,

Erica Lukes (01:00:05):

Awesome.

Eric Davis (01:00:07):

Yeah, we played little games out there. We went to the little alien and got some ice cream and some drinks, and the famous post box postop the mailboxes out there.

Erica Lukes (01:00:16):

Yeah, the black box, that's not there anymore from what I hear.

Eric Davis (01:00:19):

Yep, yep, that's right. Oh yeah. So we drove out on the dirt road out to the R 51 back entrance or one of them, and saw the warning signs. So we parked, walked up to the edge of the line and just stood there, didn't take pictures, and all of a sudden the whacking head Jeep with blacked out windows appears out of nowhere on top of the hill behind us. And so we said, aha. So we read so much about that happening to other ufology fanatics and fans and field investigators and whatnot. So we decided, well, we're going to play it cool. We're not going to let Lincoln County arrest us. So we just got back in our SUV and drove off and they followed us out until we left and passed that mailbox.

Erica Lukes (01:01:07):

Well, I don't blame them. You're causing trouble out there. So I have to ask you Fine. Well that's good. And I've been on that drive myself. It was an adventure. But I have to ask you, because we know that Muon was involved with Bigelow, and this has again, another kind of a hot button topic because we know that Muon basically bought the database from muon. So can you explain to us how that happened and what the details were?

Eric Davis (01:01:42):

I need more information. I dunno what it's that you're talking about.

Erica Lukes (01:01:46):

So there was a point in time where Bigelow approached muon to buy access to the database, and Muon in exchange was given money. And a lot of that specifically went to Muons marketing and different things. And they had team of investigators that they would give money to buy equipment to get on planes and go out and investigate cases that were,

Eric Davis (01:02:16):

Oh, that was the STAR team, that was the Muon star team

(01:02:22):

That was set up by bass as part of the DOD contract to set up a rapid 24 hour investigative team. So I don't know the specifics of the database issue because that didn't fall into my purview. So it sounds vaguely familiar. I think Bob tried to buy the muon database back in the eighties or nineties, even before nibs. And I had heard some rumors about that from John Alexander. So it's not the first time, but I think that was part of the DOD contract. And you want to get the database because he had a computer program set up that would do pattern analysis. Well, okay, lemme back up. They had built a computer program at bass and the purpose of the program was to do a military, or, well, not even a military, it was actually a civilian private company designed database warehouse program. So the bass folks were part of that to build this database.

(01:03:28):

I mean, they had to give user interface. I input inputs to the software designer who was doing all the coding and they would go back and forth on what was the most effective interface of data between the user on the computer and what's stored in the warehouse. So the idea was to set up a big database of all the UFO databases and warehouse it. And I think that's probably what you're referring to, was that Bob? I know I heard something some wind of that, that Bob was supposed to buy the Muon database because they want to move that into the data storage warehouse among all the other ones. Like Larry Hatch had one new fork had one full, four had one, and my gosh, Dick Haynes had his at ncap, was that ncap? I think that was Dick Haynes organization.

Erica Lukes (01:04:20):

Yes. Yes.

Eric Davis (01:04:20):

So they had theirs. So the idea was to collect all the databases if they could and buy them and incorporate them into this new program that was being designed from scratch. And I understood basically it was just a very fancy reprogramming of Microsoft Excel and just using a very fancy coding of Excel to be able to add databases in. And you've got 'em laid out in organizational charts so that you have certain ways of accessing the data efficiently. And so then you could start doing pattern analysis on the data. So if you put a keyword search word in the program, I think it would pull up all kinds of pattern analysis and frequency charts and all kinds of histograms and things like that to help you figure out something pertaining to that keyword. That's the gist of it. It's more deeper than that, but it's been years since I've been briefed on it and I don't remember all the particulars and I'd have to spend a great deal of time digging in my records to find the briefing on that particular program.

(01:05:24):

But yeah, that was what it was for. And that was just to incorporate muons big extensive database into this program so that bass could provide the US military with a very coherent, highly responsive, effective means of analyzing UFO cases all over the world. And the STAR team was designed to do 24 hour turnaround on any UFO cases that were called into their number and or communicated by email. They would take a report just like we did at NS, and then they would evaluate it, go through a protocol scrub to decide which was high value versus which was needed follow up. And if any of them didn't make a cut on follow up phone calls, then they weren't going to be investigated. So anything that rose to meet the bar, the minimal requirements for spending money on it, then you had a team that would get a vehicle, they'd have credit cards already pre-charged credit cards or pre, what is it?

(01:06:29):

Pre-filled credit cards to be able to pay for the travel expenses and their lodging and meals. And they had equipment and they were all trained and they were all very professionally trained by military, by a guy with the military background who knew how to do field investigations. And he was a member of muon and that was what that was about. And I don't know anything more about what happened with that as far as how many cases they investigated or any of that because none of that information came across my desk. I wasn't concerned with that aspect of the program.

Erica Lukes (01:07:06):

And it's interesting that you talk about data analysis and how you can search keywords and there is a certain person involved in UFOLOGY right now who uses a pseudonym who has been going out and collecting all the data. And you wonder, I wonder if perhaps all that data isn't going into a database to do just that. And I think that's, that's just a statement I'm going to throw out there so you don't have to respond. But with regard to muon, since that was a part of the DOD contract, I mean, is that something that any of the MUON members, I mean who was privy to that information and what does that mean for muon?

Eric Davis (01:07:56):

My guess is is that the STAR team members probably the manager, the director and the trainer were privy to it. Jim Carion was the director of MUON at the time, so he most likely knew the Muon board of directors knew, and I'm sure the other muon directors of the various divisions were also in on that. So that's my knowledge of it.

Erica Lukes (01:08:21):

Okay. To me, I think that it is good to know that with Bigelow data was going somewhere where it was actually being utilized, researched with regard to the Skin Walker Ranch and how you were investigating up there, what were some of the things that you employed as researchers, investigators to try to go the phenomenon?

Eric Davis (01:08:50):

Well, I didn't investigate anything. Are you talking about during the bass era?

Erica Lukes (01:08:56):

Yes. After that

Eric Davis (01:08:59):

I was severed from that. Basically Hal and I would get reports from BASS on a regular basis, like a big three ring binder of summary sheets on each of the incidences that were investigated. It was the bass personnel on the ranch that did the investigations. That was their job. That's what they were paid to do. And a lot of that involved the security officers. So the security team that was to secure the ranch. They were given equipment, they were given training by most likely Colin Kher and a couple of the other bass folks who were former military aviators had worked up the investigative protocols. And I'm sure that they had done all that training with the security teams and probably sent, and I know they sent some folks down there who were not bass employees who were a group of scientists. They would've been government officials as well, politicians and so forth who went down to tour that site to see it. But anyway, the point is is that the purpose of that was done by bass itself using bass personnel. Hal and I just got the reports and if there was any need to give advice, we would give it, but we were never asked much in the way of advice because Bob is an old hand at it.

(01:10:17):

He owneds in the ranch up until he sold it just a couple of years, three years ago and or two years ago actually. And so he worked with Colin Kelleher and between him and Colin and the two military guys who were their top executives, they figured out everything that they wanted to do to be able to carry out field investigations. Now, if they did anything off the ranch, I'm not aware of it, I was too busy doing the other part of the contract that Earth Tech was subcontracted to deal with. And then the program ended in 2012 and couldn't get refunded for another cycle. And we were told we had to find a new home in the Department of Defense, and if we did, we could get a new funding cycle. And we had a hard time doing it because there was a lot of bureaucratic inertia, an even larger amount or even a bigger wall of bureaucratic resistance among folks who were, there was a lot of infighting.

(01:11:23):

The resistance was caused by infighting between high level appointees of the president who were political people in charge of directorates in certain agencies. And they were babbling over our program funding because when they saw that we were getting a big chunk of phase two funding, they started fighting like cats and dogs over who would get the money. Then the person on the chain of command above them would see this fighting and arguing going on for about a half a year. And by the end of that year when the decision needed to be made to adopt the BASS program or well to adopt the Department of Defenses program contract with bass, run it and pick it up where it left off so that we could then talk about where BASS could have gone off the ranch to do other investigations either overseas or elsewhere in the United States.

(01:12:17):

And the fact is is that by the end of that year, the agency deputy director got really upset at a meeting that they had, but that individual had with their chiefs, their directorate chiefs and so forth and just said, you know what? For the life of me, all this is just crap. You guys won't stop bickering and arguing it over it. As far as I'm concerned, I don't want to have anything to do with it. We're done. So they walked away from it and that left us in limbo and it took us another couple of years for another funding cycle opportunity to come up. And so that fell apart because we still couldn't get a home. And the home is the agency that has to host the outside contracts with the contractor. The program was run itself by Lou Elizondo within the USDI, that's the office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence.

(01:13:11):

But they hand off outside defense contracts to another agency who is the program manager of record or the agency of record that handles the program contract for the contractors. Because USDI is not set up to do contracts with contractors, they find a DOD component, a DOD agency or a DOD directorate that has an office and a manager at a high enough level that they can have the authority to let out a broad area announcement or a request for proposals on the open internet on the DODs website advertising this project and that they're soliciting proposals for contracts. And so you need an office to do that, and that does not come under a secretary's office that comes under one of the agency or C offices. Intelligence agency was another one to pick it up. After the director of the DIA refused to renew the program under his command because he did not get adequate enough information to understand the full scope and depth of the program, he was only given superficial information about the program and he didn't think much of it of the outcome.

(01:14:35):

And so he just decided, I don't want anything to do with it. The reason why he got superficial information about the program in an official briefing is because you have to be careful what you tell certain people. You do have the Collins a lead out there, and Nick Redford is absolutely right, but he's also wrong. He's right that there are religious fanatics that are embedded in various levels of the United States government, and some of 'em are scientific fanatics. They're not necessarily religious, and so they're blinded by scientific prejudice and bias and elitism. So anyway, you don't have an organized Collins Elite. You have a loose, you know what? Loose Confederacy is not even right. They're not even a confederacy. It's just a sporadic number of people here and there usually an individual, maybe two individuals, not much more than two or three that know each other or work together who are uber religious, either Christian or otherwise.

(01:15:39):

And they view UFOs and well UFOs and aliens as demonic and Satanic, and they're in a position of authority where they can deny any kind of progress or program being set up or any kind of program that's in operation to proceed or progress or move forward, get refunded, get new funding or whatever. They can deny it, they can stop it. And it's TRS because they have religious prejudices against UFOs and they just simply one three star Air Force General told somebody I know at a major legacy aerospace corporation once on this particular topic, and it had nothing to do with BASS or the AIP program. This is a historical program dating back to the eighties. And he basically told this vice president, patriotic Americans don't want to have anything to do with demonic technology or Satan because that's going to lead to their downfall. Patriotic Americans want to stay away from the devil.

Erica Lukes (01:16:45):

Absolutely. And we've got to talk about this after the break. This is really important and I'm so glad you went there. We have got one last little break before we wrap up the show. I'm Erica Lukes here with Dr. Eric Davis. Of course, the best is yet to come, so stick around.

Speaker 5 (01:17:05):

Standby. This is UFO classified with Erica Lukes. Erica Lukes. The phone lines are open now at 7 0 2 4 2 5 9 2 3 0 at 7 0 2 4 2 5 92 30 worldwide callers use Skype name KCOR radio more UFO classified UFO classified you were vote classified with Erica Lukes on the KCOR Digital Radio Network after this

Speaker 14 (01:17:35):

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Speaker 5 (01:19:44):

Awfully quiet. Do you have an hour to kill? Well, Craig up those EVPs spirit boxes and walk the haunted halls of the unknown with UK's very own paranormal investigator. David Cook. You guys ready for this? The ghostly hour live Sunday, 2:00 PM Pacific, 5:00 PM Eastern. And now come here firsthand accounts of some of the most famous ghost sightings, photos and videos from around the world, skeptics, believers and spirits, both good and bad. Welcome. Welcome. The Ghostly Hour hosted by David Cook Live every Sunday, 2:00 PM Pacific, 5:00 PM Eastern exclusively on the KCOR Digital Radio Network. You're listening to. I'm listening. You're listening to UFO classified with Erica Lukes, where the truth isn't hidden beneath the black lines of a Sharpie. That's the craziest thing I've ever heard to be on with Erica. Call 7 0 2 4 2 5 9 2 3 0. That's 7 0 2 4 2 5 92 30 worldwide callers use Skype, name KCOR radio, radio contact. Share your thoughts on the show on Twitter by using hashtag KCOR. More get over to the live chats@kcorradio.com. The audience goes nuts. And now your host of UFO classified. Are you ready? Erica Lukes. Erica Lukes,

Erica Lukes (01:21:27):

Welcome back. And I had no doubt this is going to be a show for the memory books. I am here with Dr. Eric Davis, who is the Chief Science Officer of Earth Tech International, Dr. Davis, welcome back. You have had so much experience in this field with Bigelow, with ns, with now you are an advisor to the Stars Academy and all of these things. You've had such a vast, just an incredible career. And I will have you back on again and again because we need to know about this, but you were talking about the Collins Elite and some of this, the religious conservative people that are in charge of certain branches of the government or they can push funding in a certain direction or deny funding. George Knapp did an interview with Senator Harry Reed where he alluded to that fact as well. With regard to that. Was there Nick reference book, final events? Were there people involved in the government that were trying to harness this technology and utilize that for reasons that weren't for the best? Good?

Eric Davis (01:22:51):

Okay, so the answer is, yeah, there has been since Ofwell, could it be the enemy's technology? We need to learn, we need to reverse engineer it. And so we have intelligence collection and analysis programs dedicated to recovering our enemies, military weapons and communications and rate sensor systems, what's called massive measurements and signals intelligence and things like that. So we've always had that. So as soon as a quote alien craft, the alien being, we don't know where it's from, but it could be from another star, could be from another dimension, it could be from the future. Who knows, they crash land or they deliberately land and we recovered them. The United States military has a protocol to recover those. It's in the mandate for the national security, for protecting national security to recover those things and study them and try to figure out what the heck they're made out of and how they work.

(01:23:58):

And can we exploit it? Because the odds are high that our enemies also had collected their own crash retrievals and had developed reverse engineering programs or already had their reverse engineering programs that captured American technology or Western technology per se. And so they would embed any UFO technology into the bat, naturally would go into the same streams. And so they would try to figure it out and see if they could advance technology, make a new weapon out of it to defend ourselves against our enemies or a new offensive weapon against our enemies or what? It's a natural progression of military thinking, and it's part of the national security since World War ii. How long ago was that? We're going on 80 years or something. So it's just the philosophy of what we want to do. We want to collect information, analyze it, utilize it to the best of our ability and the best of our talents to be able to protect our nation.

(01:25:00):

And if it means it's a clinging on bird of prey from Kronos that lands on earth and it's crippled and it lands in Arizona by any chance, you darn, you're darn right that the Air Force and the ccia and everybody's going to retrieve that thing and tear it apart and figure out how it works because we're going to want to learn how to reproduce that technology because that'll give us the military edge over our enemies. And right now we're losing our high tech parody with China and Russia, more so China because of their heavy theft of intellectual property through their various government rules and regulations on doing business with American companies and through their cyber espionage. And the same with Russia. The Russias have been more about cyber espionage to divide and conquer our democracy and our civilian population, the American population. And yeah, they're trying to steal stuff too. They always have been.

Erica Lukes (01:26:01):

And I want to just throw in there on that note with all of this, I mean, I fully believe that there are people involved or inserted in the UFO community, specifically on social media who are there to disrupt the flow of information and the public sentiment.

Eric Davis (01:26:19):

Yeah, that's right. What's the word? There's a word for those guys. I just can't think of it. It's just

Erica Lukes (01:26:26):

Trolls. Yeah, troll. I mean they're

Eric Davis (01:26:31):

They're there. Yeah, you've got some individuals out there who are basically just anarchist and they just want to so doubt, fear and chaos and create division. And

Erica Lukes (01:26:44):

They're also being paid though. They're paid to steer the narrative.

Eric Davis (01:26:50):

And so set everybody in the UFO community at each other's throats. So that's Theary tactic that's used to keep us from studying the UFO problem. We're not working hard here to study the UFO problem as an entire national community of people interested in UFOs. We're too busy killing each other by attacking each other's credibility reputation. We're attacking every nitpicky little detail of something that some armchair amateur expert thinks they know about FIR video monitor displays in F 18 cockpits, whether they should hear the pilot's voice or not, whether they think they're seeing the correct displays or not, blah, blah, blah. All I hear is a bunch of shit from a bunch of people who don't know what they're talking about. And that is part of the disinformation campaign, and that is part of the, oh, perception management. That's what this is. So it's basically perception management, operation two, divide and conquer.

Erica Lukes (01:27:48):

And so I have to ask you, we know back from broswell on the United States government deliberately set out to try to discredit or minimalize this topic, marginalize this topic. And so how do all of you who care about studying this topic, researching this topic, how do you combat that and what role do you think the United States government had in all of this chaos that we're seeing right now?

Eric Davis (01:28:19):

Well, the government doesn't really play a role in that chaos. So they're too busy focused on the news cycle of today. They're tasking of today. For the large part, the United States government doesn't care about UFOs. The only part of the government that cares about UFOs because of its national security implications is a certain small segment within the Department of Defense and the handful of the intelligence agencies. So for the large part, your political appointees out there, I don't have to pick on Donald Trump, it could any presidential administration, I can throw a dart at any one of them and the answer will be the same. They legitimately don't care about UFOs because it doesn't have anything to do with the daily flow of their political jobs, their cabinet jobs, their bureaucratic jobs to implement and operate and carry out the government at the orders of both the president and according to the laws that the Congress and the President sign and pass into effect.

(01:29:30):

And so UFOs isn't a big role there. So UFOs is just one of many different things. The CIA and the DOD have climate intelligence or basically climate intelligence, environmental intelligence, they were worried for many, many years about global warming and the effects on the US military and the effects on foreign countries because if foreign countries get destabilize as a byproduct of the effects of global warming, then that's going to go into international fallout. There's going to be international relation problems. There's going to be all kinds of fallout coming out of that the United States needs to worry about because of the impact of that fallout of a deteriorating company, a country on the national security. So you can't really to combat it, there's no method, there's no tried and true or generic or universal method to combat those forces of obstruction in the United States government on this topic.

Erica Lukes (01:30:36):

And I just have to ask you, I'm sorry to cut you off, but we're running short of time and I want to just ask you some really important questions here because I've got questions in chat. But so as far as Roswell, so was Roswell a real V event? Were there programs prior to what we've been told to look at technology with regards to Roswell and then from then on, can you clarify that?

Eric Davis (01:31:12):

Yes. Yeah, John Alexander has always said that in the early years he said Roswell was anma because he could disprove the MOG balloon explanation. He talked to various people at Los Alamos when he was there running as a civilian, running the non-lethal weapons program that he founded there. And so he thought that the government's explanation for Roswell was absolutely bunk and he was right. I mean, he still will say that, but now he's changed his mind in more recent years in between the publication of his books. And now he's back to the balloon explanation on Roswell. And I'm not sure why it changed his mind. He doesn't know the right people to talk to. He didn't have the to know clearances to those people with the need to know questions. And I'm not going to get into the MJ 12 documents or the ones that have been released.

(01:32:05):

I'm going to get into what I know that is of sensitive information still. But yeah, Roswell was a real event. It happened and it was a stupid phony coverup that General Rainey was ordered by Washington to institute in order to shut the story down as quick as possible because of what they had recovered was pretty spectacular, and they just didn't want it getting out to the Soviets and anybody else that they had recovered that craft and the bodies. So yeah, we've got a crash retrieval and Roswell is there, and I disagree with John Alexander when he says that he couldn't find any evidence of it, but Phil Corso made it clear that there was evidence, and I've done background investigation on Phil Corso that went beyond what John was capable of doing, and I verified Corso story and verified every word he said about Roswell. So it happened,

Erica Lukes (01:33:03):

And I've got to just clarify because people hear Corso and their hackles come up. I think that probably his book was embellished by Bill Burns. But correct me if I'm wrong,

Eric Davis (01:33:18):

And if you read the handwritten manuscript that Phil wrote of his autobiography, you'll find the very small section of the book where he talks about the Roswell crash, how when he was a retired civilian, his good buddy, Lieutenant General Arthur Trudeau had hired him at the Army Research Agency, or this has been a long time since I've read that story, so I might get a little bit of the details wrong. But his job as a civilian was to handle the crash approval materials and assign them out to the various defense contractors for analysis and reverse engineering studies. And so that proved out to be true. And so it's there, and there were several other crash retrievals that had happened after that.

(01:34:09):

And so yeah, it's there. And so the problem is for the most part, the people, you've got a mix of people. You've got those Collins Elite, and like I said, they're not a loose confederacy of people. They are not organized group of people by any means. It is just individuals here and there that were born and raised in Kansas or Oklahoma or parts of Texas or elsewhere in the south or the Midwest, and they were raised in fundamental evangelical churches, Protestant churches. Some are even very fundamentalist Catholics, and there are some of 'em that are even Mormons. And they have very extreme views about USOs and the aliens or the U four knots that occupy them, and they think they're satanic and the UFOs are demonic technology. And so they're the roadblocks. They provide obstruction, they're in the chain of command. Whenever they come across something like this, they're very sensitive to it, and they'll do whatever they can to expose such a program, shut it down, block it, run interference, do anything they can to either stop it, keep it from being implemented, or keep it from getting funded or keep it from getting new funding.

(01:35:17):

And it's really pathetic and it's really bad that it's based on fear, incompetence, greed and careerism. And I think greed is really the word. I think there's another word I'm missing, and greed is not the right word, but fear incompetence is fear incompetence, and careerism is the three of the words I can remember. But out of the four

Erica Lukes (01:35:40):

And absolutely I couldn't agree with you,

Eric Davis (01:35:42):

That is what goes on inside the military intelligence community where the topic of UFOs comes up. And that's why the crash retrieval program was buried as black and deep as it could be buried to keep it protected from those morons.

Erica Lukes (01:35:57):

And so I've got to ask you again, I've got so many questions you are coming back, but do you know being asked the unclassified title of the 4,900 page UFO history that Luis Elizondo mentioned,

Eric Davis (01:36:13):

Are you talking about the 38 gird reports?

Erica Lukes (01:36:17):

I believe that's what they're referring to.

Eric Davis (01:36:21):

Okay. I cannot talk about what the titles are of the two classified ones, they're

Erica Lukes (01:36:27):

Classified,

Eric Davis (01:36:29):

The ones that have been released, the ones that have been released just recently today or yesterday, one of 'em got redacted, the other one didn't, and that was a mistake. But there are 36 that are for official use only. That's the lowest level of classification. So technically they can't be unclassified, but contradiction, I don't know how that happened, but that happens. You have some mistakes made in the government here and there on these red tape things. So the 36 that are named are for official use only, which is the lowest level of classification, but they're also stamped and classified. So they are two of those reports, not two of the 36, but two of the 38 are classified. And I'm not going to acknowledge their titles because I can't contracted those though.

Erica Lukes (01:37:24):

Well, and I have to ask you, because Keith Bassfield and this blog mentioned some of the fact that two of theses were given to Corey. Good. How did Corey good get that information?

Eric Davis (01:37:38):

I have no idea. I don't even know who Corey good is.

Erica Lukes (01:37:42):

And so could that have been leak? Was that leaked by somebody?

Eric Davis (01:37:46):

Well, all I know is that George Knapp mentioned in his IT report a months ago or maybe even two months ago, a month ago, he said that he had, now I didn't read the article yet, and all I remember from a byline on that or the subtitle heading and some commentary he put on his Facebook post is that he went to the beltway and he met with the government official, and I don't recall him naming it, but I think that might've been Harry Reed. So I met with the government official, whether it's Harry Reed or not, and he got access to those titles, to those report titles, and he did get, I think he was given a copy of possibly a copy of one. And I know that the other two that are out there were leaked.

(01:38:35):

And then from what I heard from you before was that Corey Good got a number of them and all of a sudden they were stolen off his computer. But I don't know anything about that. So I don't know who that individual is, and I don't know why anybody would go to his computer to steal those reports off of them. It doesn't make sense. And it's not in the FBI's purview to want to do that because those reports aren't, only two of them are sensitive, but the others are not. But they're not going to be officially released in the public domain because they're still being used. Those documents are actively being used used. I don't know if the DOD will eventually decide they could be exempt from foia. They're in the FOIA circular file right now, and they're going to remain there using one of the nice little tools of FOIA exemptions. So the reason is because they're still in use, and those are documents that go to the future of our national security technologies. And it's not a good idea to reveal that. I'm not interested in letting the goddamn Russians know about what we're looking at 50 years into the future or the Chinese. And both of them are vacuum cleaners of intelligence, just like we're we steal from them, they steal from us.

(01:39:55):

So that's why I don't know that they're going to be destined to be released. The two classified ones will never be released. And because they contain sensitive military information and based on this technical topic that they pertain to, so I'm really reluctant, I'm okay that three of them got leaked. They're based on stuff I published in the past, my boss has published in the past and, and then we allowed the authors of the unclassified ones to publish technical papers in the peer review journals out in the open domain on the topics of those reports. So they're perfectly free to do so. Hal already had one. I've got a number of them on my reports and actually almost all of my reports, but one of my reports is based on a very updated, advanced, highly evolved version of reports I generated for the Air Force Research Lab back in the early two thousands. So all new materials got all new material on it, but it's based on contract work I did for the Air Force back in the early two thousands after I left ns. And so that's where, it's what I know about that.

Erica Lukes (01:41:16):

Okay. And I've got to ask you really quickly, Richard Doty has inserted himself into the narrative. Again, what is your take on Doty?

Eric Davis (01:41:26):

Doty's such a complex individual? I've met him. He's a really great guy. We sat at a conference table in my boss's office and shot the breeze, and he's actually a upstanding, straight narrow guy. I mean, he's a decorated, highly decorated New Mexico state police officer. I think he might be retired by now. And he was with afo. I as a special agent, as everybody in the UFO community knows, and he pulled a lot of hijinks on Linda Howell and other folks, and he's upset them and he tells a different story every time. I don't want offer an opinion because I only met him one time, and I've had no real interactions with them after that or before that the people in the know would be the best. And they don't want to talk about it because the conversations they've had in looking into Doty's background were all done in official government formats, and so they cannot reveal any of that. I know there's been a lot of publications that talk about that, but I'm not going to address it because I'm not a Doty expert.

Erica Lukes (01:42:37):

Okay, thank you. And then that's good because there's so much I don't have anything. You're welcome. There's so much you. I just want to say that's so much out there right now, and we see so many different people that were involved that were giving misinformation or disinformation. It's like I think that there are good researchers or people that care about this. I think of my friends, Barry Greenwood and Jen Alrich and different people that have researched this, and they just want good information. And it is so hard, as you know, because you have to keep things classified. There are things that the public will never know, and that's probably a good thing, especially when you look at other countries trying to steal intelligence and all of this. But where would you say that people like us who care about this subject, who care about the history, what can we do to assist you or to assist ourselves and carry the important work forward?

Eric Davis (01:43:39):

Well, that's a good question. I would need to take some time to think about an answer for that. That's not a quick and easy answer. How about you remember to ask me that question next time and I'll have an answer for you.

Erica Lukes (01:43:53):

Okay. I love it. And thank you. And one more question really quick before we go. I've got a question from chat. Are you under NDA with regard to government classification? And you can't answer these questions, which of course you are. Yeah.

Eric Davis (01:44:08):

Well, yeah. I can't acknowledge or confirm whether or not I have security clearances, but I can say, yeah, when you're working with the Pentagon, you're under the NDA as associated with certain type of tickets that you need to have to get access to information. So yeah, I'm restricted from revealing anything really.

Erica Lukes (01:44:26):

Okay. Thank you to the Stars Academy. What are the new things that will be happening, especially since we've just heard about the new program?

Eric Davis (01:44:40):

Yeah, basically Hal and I are going to be, we're actually in the process already taking materials that were recovered from ufo, close encounters by civilian witnesses, and there was a chain of custody on some of these materials, and I think there was a little bit of a provenance problem on one of them that's getting cleared up as we speak, or it's in the process of getting cleared up eventually. And so we had a nice, clear, solid chain of custody of transferring the materials from the witnesses and eventually to us, and we're going to take them in for testing of their isotope ratios and materials analysis. We're going to look and see what elements they're made out of and ascertain if there's any functionality to them if possible. Then what isotopic ratios, they might have an isotope, meaning the elements in the periodic table of atomic elements basically are defined by their atomic mass. And atomic mass is defined by a fixed number of protons and neutrons for every element in the atomic table. So

Erica Lukes (01:45:46):

Some of these will

Eric Davis (01:45:48):

Actually have more neutrons than others.

Erica Lukes (01:45:49):

And so I'll have you back and it will be in the next little bit because there's so much more to learn. Dr. Eric Davis, thank you for being here and answering these questions and welcome, giving us insight into skin walker and so much more. I'm Erica Lukes. I will be here next week, so stick around now. In case you are, great night of broadcasting, William Miranda is up. We'll catch you next week.

Speaker 5 (01:46:16):

Listen very carefully. This is Houston S again, please. This is UFO classified live every Friday night, 4:00 PM Pacific, 7:00 PM Eastern exclusively on the KCOR Digital Radio Network. The truth is out there just waiting to be discovered. And now, if you will accompany me on a journey to the future for more information on the host of UFO classified Erica Luke's. Upcoming guests as well as links to the past shows. Visit her website@ufoclassified.com. ufo classified UFO classified UFO classified UFO classified. This is KCOR Las Vegas home of the Digital Radio Network, broadcasting from a shq just south of Fair.