2024-06-12 - NewsNation Reality Check "Dr. Garry Nolan sits down with Ross Coulthart"

Source Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilou4EU9XgE

 

Ross Coulthart (00:05):

Hi, I'm Ross Coulthart. Welcome to Reality Check here in North America for News Nation. I've come here to Huntsville, Alabama, rocket City to attend the annual conference of the Scientific Coalition for the Study of UAPs. In fact, I'm giving their keynote address. You might recall that last year I interviewed Dr. Gary Nolan, one of the world's most eminent immunologists. He gave me his views on his attempts to explain and understand the phenomena, the eerie strangeness of unidentified anomalous phenomena. Here's parts of his interview that we recorded last year. Dr. Gary Nolan is a world renowned immunologist, a professor of pathology at Stanford and a biotech entrepreneur. His breakthrough biotechnology gene therapy discoveries around cancer are used around the world. He's also the head of the SOUL Foundation, which just announced a new initiative for UFO Research and Policy. This is an interview with Professor Gary Nolan. Thank you very much for talking to me, Gary. The statement of intent for Sol is that you aspire to be a serious well-funded, cutting edge academic research into the nature of UAP and their broad cosmological and political implications. That's a noble aspiration. How do you do that though? With something like UAPs, which is so intangible, we don't know enough about it. How do you even begin to gather data? Where do you start?

Garry Nolan (01:52):

So I think you start by clearing the table, putting all of what is known, not aside, but into a place where you can pull it back in a bit at a time. You categorize first what the questions are that you want to ask, you bring off of the table or the material that you put off the table and you put it back on by basically cleaning up your bedroom. And that's really what this is about. It's putting things away in the right places now. But I mean, the objective is once we've put all of the data into the right categories, we then say, okay, well what of this meets academic standards and criteria of excellence? So I know what that is from a scientific point of view, Peter SK knows what that is from a sociologic and Anthropologic point of view. So doing we say, okay, well look, all of this is nice and it's great information, and a lot of people have thought about this, but how do we start to put it? We will start to put it together in a way that brings it to the government. It is not about telling them what to do necessarily. It's about talking with them about what kind of questions they want answered, and then we begin to direct them down. I think the necessary paths,

Ross Coulthart (03:14):

There's a bear in the room. Of course, the government knows probably far more about UAPs than it's letting on. Does that frustrate you as a scientist?

Garry Nolan (03:22):

Parts of the government. So we often talk about the government as a single entity. It's a Tentacular monster. So there's parts of the government that don't want it, and there's parts of the government that do want it. And actually what you're seeing, most of the information that's coming forward is from the people who themselves are frustrated that the information is not out there.

Ross Coulthart (03:49):

What drove you personally to get involved with a group like Sol? Why did you recognize the need for a foundation to investigate UAPs? Because really shouldn't this be being filled by government? Isn't it

Garry Nolan (04:02):

A government? No. Oh my God, not government. That's the worst possible thing to do When it comes down to it, at least, why did I get involved? I saw that there was an incredible amount of data out there, but that the right kinds of scientists were not involved. And if I'm going to get my colleagues involved, then I have to help make this credible so that they can feel they can come out of the shadows. There's plenty of people who I talk to behind the scenes who are academics, mainstream academics, they just don't want to talk about it yet because they feel that the stigma is still too high. But actually, that's quite different three years ago than what it is today.

Ross Coulthart (04:46):

I was going to ask, are you seeing a change?

Garry Nolan (04:47):

Absolutely. Yeah. Such an incredible change of people saying, first of all, well thank you for doing this. How can I help? So I used to get a lot of emails, thank you for doing it. Now I get a lot of emails saying, how can I help? And so that I think is the kind of change that we're looking for because it really is the sort of grassroots effort that's going to move this forward. And the other thing is that you can't wait for Daddy government to tell you what you think you already know, and they don't need to give you permission to move forward. But why we do need government is that frankly, you still need the funding structures. So how is it that we create an incentive both for the people on the inside as well as the government to release the information? I mean, the incentive shouldn't be, we are all at the doors with pitchforks, right? The incentive should be that this is going to help the country in some way, or the military.

Ross Coulthart (05:44):

If you do get breakthroughs in your research, there's always the, I admit, distinct possibility that you might stumble across something that somebody's sitting on in private aerospace or government. Are you worried you might get shut down? I mean, the government does have the Invention Secrecy Act. They can shut down research if they want to,

Garry Nolan (06:04):

To then fine, but they can't shut down all research, right? I mean, what are they going to do? Tell me I can't do my work in my lab. Right? I mean, I am not worried about that, really. Actually, that's almost the least of my worries at this point.

Ross Coulthart (06:19):

Good science is based on, of course, the scientific method. You test a hypothesis with experiment and replication by its very nature. Is anything related to the phenomenon of UAPs repeatable?

Garry Nolan (06:33):

Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, look, if UAP materials exist, right? Allegedly. And there's plenty of people who are credible enough to say that they do, they're perfectly subject to the scientific method, and that's what I want. I think the other way to look at it is that the best people are not necessarily on the problem. That's not to say that there aren't good people in the government who are working on this, but it's to say that the best people are at research facilities in public institutions around the world, and we want them involved. And because the best way to solve a problem is to bring in the experts. And it's not that academics are coming in and saying, "get out of the way. We're going to do this. We know what's going on." It's that they need to be available. For instance, me, if I have a question from the government to say, Hey, we need help on this. I can use my position as an academic to reach out to that individual and bring them in a good way. For instance, I was somewhere where a person, a scientist of very, very high status, I said to her, I need you, "for what" she asked. And I told her, and she says, you're kidding me? And I said, of course not. You know me, but I need your help. And she said, okay, let's talk about it.

Ross Coulthart (08:01):

How much of the problem is that there's a dogmaticism in establishment science to even considering the possibility that this UAP issue is real?

Garry Nolan (08:12):

How much

Ross Coulthart (08:13):

Yeah, how much of a problem is that for you?

Garry Nolan (08:15):

I don't see it as a problem. I mean, it was a problem previously, but I mean, frankly, I don't care what these other people think about what it is that I'm doing with my time. But I mean, it's an interesting word that you used, dogmatism. Where's dogma? Most usually used in religion? So the best comeback I've actually found that actually causes an almost visible step back from scientists who are challenging me on this is to say that, well, first of all, you should give your PhD back. You've just broken your oath. You're not asking the right questions, and second, you should go join a priesthood.

Ross Coulthart (08:54):

The thing I love most about what I've seen at the Sol Foundation, A GM, is the idea of different people from different fields of science sharing ideas. And that's the very thing that if they're telling the truth, people inside the alleged crash retrieval program say, it's not happening. Good science is being frustrated by secrecy.

Garry Nolan (09:14):

Well, I think just today's conversations alone, where you had both scientists as well as sociologists talking, I mean, frankly, I struggled through listening and trying to understand the points of view of some of the sociologists, but I realized, ah, this is a change where I need to understand. I can see what it is that they're saying. I'm beginning to understand the language. And because they, as much as scientists are part of the conversation, because there's a whole swath of the public who really doesn't understand or doesn't care a wit about the science, but they're interested in the sociologic changes that might come. And so there's people out there who are experts in that as well.

Ross Coulthart (09:57):

One of the things that came out of today's conversations was the fact that there's a lot of talk about technology analysis of metamaterials. You did a great presentation on the samples that have been recovered from alleged spillage, if you like, from objects. What about witness evidence? People who claim to have had experiences? How do you measure something like that?

Garry Nolan (10:18):

I leave that to the sociologists. I mean, it's what you would call an anecdote. Now, believe it or not, in medicine, there's a utility to anecdotes. You can publish an anecdote, but that's usually a medical anecdote of something where you would able to take all of the criteria of the individual's health. Anecdotes are important, and they have a place, and there's actually a science of how to use those kinds of stories, but that belongs in the sociologists area. I have my own personal anecdotes, but that's different. I can't use them when I'm talking science, because the science has a particular language and an approach, a methodology that, and I've say this many times, is my mantra. It's the data, not the conclusion. That the data, if I can convince another scientist that the data is real, then I can ask them to think about possible conclusions.

Ross Coulthart (11:13):

The reason I ask is because it's a matter of public record. For example, Jim Lacatski has publicly said that he was witness or he has direct knowledge of craft, crash retrievals. So there are allegations on the public record now of crash retrievals. Does it frustrate you as a scientist that if we're talking about the analysis of materials, the best science would be to be able to go directly to those materials and test them?

Garry Nolan (11:40):

Directly? Yeah, well, of course. I mean, I would give this tooth to go and see them, but I also realized that there's a process of basically culturing those on the inside who've had a good reason not to have or felt that they had good reason not to. How do we incentivize them to agree with us? So yeah, I mean, would love to, I'd leave this room right now and go to do it.

Ross Coulthart (12:10):

Sol's head of research, Peter Skafish talked about how he thinks disclosure of the reality of UAPs has already begun. Do you agree?

Garry Nolan (12:19):

Yes. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a disclosure that there's something that they're trying to hide, and you have the people who've come from within the government who've said it, that it's real. Then you have the government twisting itself into pretzels to try to not admit what's going on and using weasel word language to try to get around what it is that they're saying. For instance, the head of arrow saying, well, we have something that we don't know what it is. It's moving in ways that we don't understand, and that's verifiable, but we have no proof et Well, really, the question should be, will you please define what ET would be before you dismiss? I mean, so it's a really fascinating use of language that they're using to basically play a magician's trick. And so I think, and something quite interesting that just happened, right? Public outcry against this lack of transparency, at the very least, caused the director to perhaps move on a little bit earlier.

Ross Coulthart (13:34):

I think there is a frustration, isn't there, that the government's not moving quickly enough?

Garry Nolan (13:37):

Right, right. I mean, I respect what it is that Sean Kirkpatrick has been doing. I mean, he's put in an extremely difficult place. He's clearly a smart man. So this is no disparagement of him. But I think he also has realized that given where the conversation has moved, it's time for another kind of director. It's like in a company, a small company. I've had many startups. There've been times when the CEO of that company is no longer the right talent as the company's grown. So you need to bring in a different kind of individual. I think we're seeing that right now

Ross Coulthart (14:13):

With the ideas and the research that you're doing. Is it the hope you might be able to commercialize some of these ideas, but what happens if you come up with a new propulsion system or a free energy system?

Garry Nolan (14:23):

Yeah. Well, I mean, my entire career has been taking basic ideas from multiple domains, merging them and then turning them into something useful. And then realizing that early on, just putting it on a library shelf is the best way to get that idea to just collect dust. So that's where you leverage your energy of belief in its utility with the commercial arm, which is basically venture capital money. And we sit amidst the best of it here in California and at Stanford area. And so I think that there's an opportunity there as well. I mean, I've said this publicly, the UAP amendment is basically either or. It stays secret. It'll be a panel that overlooks it, it stays secret or it goes into the public domain. Frankly, I think the precious little will end up in the public domain if certain people have their way. But there's this third arm in between, which is where you can incentivize with commercial activity to basically bring in the best scientists, but have somebody else pay for it.

Ross Coulthart (15:29):

So is that part of your hope, your aspiration for Sol?

Garry Nolan (15:32):

Yeah, absolutely.

Ross Coulthart (15:32):

So it's going to put the squeeze on government.

Garry Nolan (15:34):

I wouldn't say put the squeeze. I would just basically say, here's the reason why it would be a great idea.

Ross Coulthart (15:41):

What is your greatest concern?

Garry Nolan (15:44):

My greatest concern in what?

Ross Coulthart (15:46):

On the issue of UAP disclosure

Garry Nolan (15:50):

That, oh my God. Well, I would say, well, perhaps the easiest way to say about the greatest is that there is some world event that everybody turns and has to pay attention to the pandemic, and that those who want to keep it secret, don't need to shut it down. They just basically play the magician trick again, and it gets lost.

Ross Coulthart (16:14):

Because an opportunity right now isn't there for humanity, the potential. Can you give me an idea of how strongly you feel about the potential of the technologies that are being expressed, at least by what those objects represent, if they're real, what are the potentials for humanity that come out of that?

Garry Nolan (16:31):

One of the things that I've always liked about a place like Stanford is that I've got a lot of people around me who are smarter than me at any of a number of different things and areas, and I love being there. I'm not scared that somebody else might be smarter than me. So I look at this and say, well, there's somebody smarter than us. And so I don't think that I'm going to have an anti-gravity craft before the end of my existence, but what I do see is a new way perhaps, to think about the universe. And so I look at that as an opportunity to learn from somebody who's more intelligent. It's simple as that.

Ross Coulthart (17:08):

And you're pretty upfront about this. I know you have been with me in the past. You think there is something real out there and

Garry Nolan (17:15):

Well, the evidence seems to suggest that there's certainly data off the curve, as we often put it, that there's a line and then there's data that doesn't seem to fit. The circumstantial evidence basically has me convinced that it's well worth my time to spend looking at it, because there's two kinds of questions. There's the what you call Las Vegas question where the answer is either yes or no. And if it's no, you waste your time or then what we call the zen question, no matter what the answer is. It's interesting. I think this is a Zen question time,

Ross Coulthart (17:56):

Professor Garry Nolan, thank you very much.

Garry Nolan (17:58):

Yeah.