Gillibrand, Kirsten

“We need to just look into whether there are rogue SAP programs that no one is providing oversight for,” says Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, a New York Democrat who led the Senate’s April UAP hearing.

“The goal for me will be to have a hearing on that at some point so that we can assess if these SAP’s actually exist.”

Gillibrand is sponsoring an amendment she hopes to attach to this year’s must-pass National Defense Authorization Act to mandate that no money can be spent on SAP’s unless it's been reported to Congress.

“So if there are SAPs out there that are somehow outside of the normal chain of command and outside the normal appropriations process, they have to divulge that to Congress,” Gilibrand says.

As for whether she thinks there’s any veracity to the whistleblower’s claims? “I have no idea,” Gillibrand says.

“So I'm going to do the work and analyze it and figure it out.”

Matt Laslo: “Any update on the UAP stuff?”

Kristen Gillibrand: “So, we’re trying to schedule a meeting with the whistleblower, so we can ask him questions directly. And then we are also going to try to schedule meetings with the people he mentions in his whistleblowing complaint.”

ML: “And that will be classified or private?”

KG: “We’ll try to do part of it—we’ll do whatever the whistleblower wants. If the whistleblower wants it classified, we’ll do it classified. If he’s willing to do it open, we’ll do it open. And I don’t know—I’ll have to assess if there’s classified information that he’s giving us. So, we’ll create the right setting regardless, and then hopefully, he’ll come in.”

ML: “Is this really layered trying to get to the bottom of it?”

KG: “Yes, it’s extremely layered, because the allegations are very serious.”

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY) says Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer’s new UAP measure seems to have more to do with his predecessor, Harry Reid, than with UFO whistleblower David Grusch.

“You have to ask Sen. Schumer the genesis of his interest, but I think it was because he kind of took the mantle from Sen. Harry Reid and wanted to just continue the rights of the public to know information,” Gillibrand tells
Ask a Pol.

“Very similar to the JFK requirements of revealing information over time.”

While Gillibrand says her and Schumer’s new bipartisan measure to shed light on the federal government’s UFO / UAP (Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena) programs is separate from her ongoing investigation into Grusch, she says the two complement each other.

“It's not the same work we're doing in the Armed Services Committee,” Gillibrand says.

“But this is a good measure that very much dovetails with the work that we do with both Intel. and Department of Defense.”

In our exclusive interview, Gillibrand gives Ask a Pol subscribers a glimpse into her investigation into David Grusch.  

“It's very interesting, and we're continuing to probe and get information. No developments yet,” Gillibrand says.

“But if I had them, I would give them.” 

While Reps. Tim Burchett (R-TN) and Anna Paulina Luna (R-FL) have faced some pressure, eye rolls and shade ahead of next week’s House UFO hearing, Gillibrand says she’s got no concerns with the House investigation. 

“No,” Gillibrand replies. “No.”  

KG: "I didn't see his testimony, whistleblower's testimony, but I've read all the testimony and I know what the nature of all the allegations are, and they're very serious allegations that we have to get to the bottom of what I did three years ago is create an office to do this work. It's called Arrow. And the purpose is to look at all of these unidentified aero phenomenon and all of these anomalous incidents and analyze them and tell us is it a Chinese drone? Is it a Chinese spy balloon? Is it Russian, is it Iranian, or is it something else? And they are now reviewing 600 of these incidents, including the video that the pilots talked about yesterday, what they saw."

“I’ve got to follow up on getting the meetings. I don't know what happened to the requests for meetings with the whistleblowers, but I don't know where it is right now so I gotta find out,” Gillibrand tells Ask a Pol. “Just have to get things on the schedule.”

ML: “I’m curious, there’s rumors floating around—I asked Warner about it earlier, but…—claims that Warner himself shut down any UAP hearings in the Senate. What do you…?”  

Gillibrand’s face instantly says, “WTF?”  

ML: “I know!” 

KG: “I've not heard that.” 

ML: “But he doesn't have that power?”  

KG: “Yeah. I've definitely not heard that before.”

ML: “Any update on your…?”

[Subscriber-only content.]

KG: “I've asked for a meeting, and I think it's going to be scheduled soon—especially with that one whistleblower.”  

ML: “Any update on…” 

I stop myself and confirm.

ML: “‘That one whistleblower’—Grusch? David Grusch?” 

Gillibrand nods in affirmative. 

ML: “Any update on your desire for an open hearing on UAPs?” 

KG: “I did one open hearing, and you came to that, right?” 

ML: “Yeah.” 

KG: “Yeah. So I did one open hearing. And there's going to be a public report by AARO very soon, so that’s due in probably like a month or so. So I'm looking forward to that, and I'll probably have another hearing aligned with that public report.” 

ML: “Oh, interesting. And, like, after the House had their Oversight hearing with Grusch. What, like, 50% of his claims—or when he testified, he said, ‘I have to be in a SCIF…’”

KG: “These claims are very serious, and I take all of them very seriously. And I want to make sure our service members know they can come forward and disclose all projects they worked on. And it's important that the whistleblower community feels comfortable talking to AARO and having those conversations in SCIFs so that AARO can do its job thoroughly. Otherwise, they can't. So if the whistleblowers don't come forward, they can't assess their claims, they can't find programs that they're talking about.”

ML: “This other thing Warner said, he said, him and Rubio sat down with Kirkpatrick themselves. I inquired about whether they brought up [Sen. Mike] Rounds’ concern, which is just that, whistleblowers feel like they can’t…” 

KG: “They have to trust the process that Sen. Rubio and Sen. Rounds and I have set up to do this work, and if they don't trust it we can't get to the bottom of anything because we can't do all the interviews that are needed to figure out what's existing, what's not existing and, frankly, what creation of programs we need in the future to better to monitor our skies, have air dominance, have—pilot safety. Things that really matter.” 

ML: “It just feels like there's less impetus, less pressure…”

Matt Laslo: “So right now, there’s reports that the House, they’ve gonna be able to bring in Grusch in a SCIF.”

Gillibrand: “Oh, that’s great!” Laslo: “Along with with some other folks.” Gillibrand: “Oh, I’ll try to get invited to that.”

Laslo: “Oh, will you?” 

Gillibrand: “Yes, I will ask to be invited. When are they doing that? 

Laslo: (inaudible) 

Gillibrand: “But he lives in California (Colorado). There’s no reason he can come in and testify in a SCIF."

Laslo: “I know, right?“ 

Gillibrand: “He spoke to our intelligence staff at some point in time." 

Laslo: "Have you had trouble?" 

Gillibrand: “Yes.” 

Laslo: “Have you been able to work it out?” 

Gillibrand: “He doesn’t wanna… He needs me to pay for his flight.”

Laslo: “Oh yeah?”

Gillibrand: “Because I don’t have a budget to pay for his flight or hotels. So, I can talk to him on the phone but then he can’t tell me anything classified.”

Laslo: “But maybe you can piggyback on?”

Gillibrand: “Yeah, if the House has anything I can go to, I’ll go.”

Senator Gillibrand has phone call with David Grusch.

ML: “Curious, do you — have you looked at that report from AARO and Kirkpatrick?”

KG: “Not yet.”

ML: “That declassified one?”

KG: “Is it out yet? When did it come out?”

Matt Laslo: “How do you think this UAP amendment came out?” 

Kirsten Gillibrand: “I need more information.”  

ML: “Did you see Schumer's floor speech?”

KG: “I did, and I need more information about that.” 

ML: “Have you met Kirkpatrick’s new replacement?” 

KG: “Not yet, but I will. But I had a long debrief with Kirkpatrick. It went very well. So I'm gonna meet the new guy, and we’ll assess what the status is because I wasn't sure about it. I didn't know about Chuck [Schumer]’s speech, but I happened to be there. So I’m gonna assess it.”

ML: “It feels like the mood’s changed on the issue related to Grusch stuff.” 

KG: “How do you see it changed?” 

ML: “It’s just—less interest. There's not much of an investigation going on over here, it doesn’t seem.” 

KG: “No. I need to look into it. I need to figure out what's going on. I don't know yet, so I'll give you more later, as soon as I figure more things out.”

Sen. Gillibrand takes part in a classified UAP hearing.

Matt Laslo: “Still standing. Did you meet with the interim head of AARO yesterday [CORRECTION: Tuesday]?”

KG: “No. Who is it? Do you know who it is?”

ML: “No. They named somebody. You had something classified in your thing [ie, public schedule] yesterday.”

KG: “Oh, no.”

ML: “That was separate?”

KG: “Yeah. It was separate, but I’ve asked them who it is and they didn’t know.”

ML: “Really?”

KG: “Yeah.”

ML: “Because they named someone initially.”

KG: “The staff didn't know who it was.”

ML: “So what do you make of that?”

KG: “Slow.”

ML: “Yeah?”

KG: “They’re just slow.”

ML: “Case of the bureaucracy?”

KG: “Ahuh.”

ML: “That’s pretty wild.”

ML: “Is that frustrating though?”

KG: “It is, because I want to meet the new person. I want the new person to be named. And if there's an interim person, fine, but we should really have someone in line.”

ML: “There's no Senate confirmation for that is there?”

KG: “No. It's a DOD [Department of Defense] choice — DOD-Intel.”

ML: “Interesting. Are you still in talks with [David] Grusch?”

KG: “It’s Grusch’s lawyer who seems to be making the decision, so I would talk to his lawyer. So I think maybe with the next person [at AARO] they might meet. I don't know. He wouldn't meet with Kirkpatrick unfortunately.”

ML: “Because the House, they just had their second SCIF briefing on him specifically.”

KG: “On Grusch?”

ML: “Yeah.”

KG: “Oh interesting.”

 Steven Greenstreet: Can you please comment on Kirkpatrick's claim that Congress has been duped by a small group of UFO "conspiracists"?

 A: “AARO plays an important role in support of our national security. Resolving UAP reports is necessary to avoid technical surprise and ensure we have an understanding of what is happening in our airspace. Senator Gillibrand believes in a scientifically rigorous and data-driven approach to analyzing unidentified anomalous phenomena and will continue to ensure AARO upholds this mission.” -Gillibrand spokesman Evan Lukaske

Matt Laslo: “Having fun secret meetings underground?”

Kirsten Gillibrand: “We do. They’re always fun.”

ML: “I just saw [Sen. Susan] Collins (R-ME) go down [to the SCIF].”

KG: “Oh, I’m just going to the Dominican Republic…”

ML: “Was curious, what was your guys’ classified UAP briefing in January? You have it on your public schedule.”

KG: “Umm. It wasn’t about UAP.”

ML: “Oh really, it wasn’t?”

Gillibrand shakes her head.

ML: “Typo.”

KG: “No. It was in the context of that, but it was not about that. It was about broader…”

Gillibrand flashes, ‘I can’t say’ look, as they pass through the heavy fireproof doors leading into the CVC. 

ML: “Have you reached out to AARO [All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office] at all?“

KG: “Not yet, but I’ve asked to meet the guy. Remember, I’m going to meet with the interim guy?”

Gillibrand looks to her staffer. 

ML: “I think it’s Tim Phillips?”

They agree. 

KG: “Yeah, I mean, Tim Phillips.”

ML: “You’ve already met with him in the past, you just didn’t know he was interim?”

KG: “Have I met with Tim Phillips in the past?”

ML: “I don’t know.”

KG: “I don’t think I have.”

ML: “I haven’t.”

KG: “I’m going to meet with him. I’m gonna meet with him. Umm.”

ML: “Feels like this is still the start of — oh no, kind of a slow start to the year, but it’s a campaign year and all that. The border deal kinda sucks a lot of the oxygen out of the town?”

KG: “Yeah.”

ML: “Yeah? Umm.”

KG: “But we’ll get back to it, I promise.”

SCENE: Gillibrand just cast a vote on the Senate floor and is heading for the closest elevator, when she’s surprised to bump into Ask a Pol’s Matt Laslo.

Matt Laslo: “Hey senator.”

Kirsten Gillibrand: “Oh hey.”

ML: “Separate topic.”

KG: “Yeah.”

ML: “I’m wondering about your trip to Nevada with the Air Force.”

KG: “Excellent.”

ML: “What [were] the topics de jour? I was a little surprised to see you out there.”

KG: “Manufacturing.”

ML: “Manufacturing?”

KG: “Yeah.”

ML: “Cause, you know, in the House they’re investigating whether…”

KG: “I was in Nevada and California, and so I got to tour a couple of different manufacturers, and what they’re

doing for the Air Force is very exciting.”

ML: “Cause in the House they’re investigating the UAP issue and whether Northrop Grumman and Lockheed

are part of the ‘cover-up.’ Did that come up at all?”

KG: “Yeah, I know that allegation. I know the allegation. Did not come up in my review.”

ML: “No?”

KG: “But I was very grateful to see the excellent work that our military’s doing.”

ML: “Yeah? Was that campaign stuff for your colleagues?”

KG: “Everything I was doing was classified that was Air Force-related. But what I was doing in Nevada after and California after, was for my campaign.”

ML: “You guys have so much fun with your classifications.”

KG: “I know!”

ML: “Have fun, ma’am! Preciate ya.”

ML: “Have you had time to check out that new AARO report yet? The declassified one?”

KG: “Haven’t read it yet.”

ML: “No?”

KG: “I read the reports on what it said, but I don’t have it yet.”

ML: “Yeah? I’ll look for you next week on it.”

KG: “Yeah. I’ll read it. Thank you.”

Matt Laslo: “I wanted to ask you, did you see that Joint Chiefs of Staff letter last May? The one about — or on UAPs but kind of just alerting…?”

Kirsten Gillibrand: “I don’t remember what it said. I imagine I saw it, but I think what they’re most worried about is safety for pilots and domain awareness around bases and around nuclear sites. It’s essential that we have full domain awareness in our most specialized, most top-secret locations. We don’t want spying by adversaries. and so, we hadn’t developed the technology or the ability to detect all these items, and there’s been a couple of drone attacks* that are concerning.”

*Gillibrand misspoke.

ML: “Yeah?”

KG: “So…”

ML: “Oh interesting, ‘attacks’?”

KG: “What?”

ML: “Attacks? Or surveillance?”

KG: “That’s not the right word.”

One of Gillibrand’s aides went ahead to the Senate Dining Room — which is Senators Only — and keeps sticking his head out every lil bit to speed her and her other aide up.

Gillibrand aide: “Senator, you really have to get going.”

KG to aide: “I know. Oh my gosh.”

Gillibrand turns back to Ask a Pol. 

KG: “You’re right, drone ‘attack’ isn’t the right word, but drone…”

ML: “Incursions?”

KG: “Incursions. That are disturbing and need to be known and seen and be able to be taken down. So we had that — we had some hearings on that already.”

ML: “Interesting. ‘Preciate ya.”

Matt Laslo: “I haven’t seen you since you met with Timothy Phillips at AARO — their interim director.”

Kirsten Gillibrand: “Yes, I did.”

ML: “How did that go?”

KG: “Very well. I think he's incredibly competent. He was working with Dr. [Sean] Kirkpatrick all along. I let him know that I'd like to have a public hearing this summer. And so he's gonna put together some data and information to disclose in a public hearing to show what work they've done, especially examples of things that were unknown that they've been able to figure out and examples of things that were unknown that they still haven't figured out…”

ML: “Interesting.”

ML: “That's interesting, cause their declassified report kinda made it feel like case closed. But so you want…”

KG: “Oh, it's definitely not case closed. I think that their report was just that their analysis of everything they were shown and everyone they talked to, cause they had no basis to say there's a secret program. But of note, the two whistleblowers that I've met with did not meet with AARO and refused to meet with AARO. And so maybe the next director they'll meet with, but I can't assess them unless AARO can talk to them, cause I don’t — I mean, AARO knows what they know and what they've seen and what they've been shown.”

ML: “Have you met with David Grusch yet?”

KG: “No. We invited him to come, and I was supposed to meet with him and Dr. Kirkpatrick together, but they ultimately declined that meeting.”

ML: “Interesting. I'll keep my ears out for the hearing this summer.”

KG: “Yeah, so we're gonna try to do something this summer to just, again, keep the public aware of where we are, what we know, what we don't know and how we're going to gather data from here going forward so we have more robust information.”

ML: “Interesting. Have you heard anything about people at the Pentagon, like [National Security Advisor] Jake Sullivan or [Defense Secretary] Lloyd Austin working to kinda gut the Schumer — your amendment last year in the NDAA with [Senate Majority Leader Chuck] Schumer?”

KG: “I did not hear about that. I think it was very important that the way the amendment was worded, that it didn't disclose SAPs [Special Access Programs] related to US-based programs. I think it was much more about, let's frame this the right way so that we're not disclosing programs that we don't think should ever be made public, that have nothing to do with the issue of concern, unidentified aerial phenomena.”

ML: “Because they've never really had these conversations or had to release it publicly?”

KG: “Right. I think it was maybe just worded too broadly. So, I think, if there was any effort, it was to just make sure it disclosed UAP-specific things.”

ML: “Any work on that amendment for this NDAA?”

KG: “The required disclosure?”

ML: “Yeah, or expanding it or...”

KG: “I don't know. I thought we passed the provisions of that amendment.”

ML: “Yeah, but some people — like folks on the House Congressional UAP Caucus — they want it.”

KG: “They wanna have a different version of it?”

ML: “I think so…”

KG: “I'll take a look at whatever — I thought we passed what we were hoping to pass.”

ML: “….about them saying Schumer — or your amendment with Schumer got really watered down.”

KG: “Mine's different. I thought Chuck got done what he wanted to get done, but maybe I'm mistaken. I thought he accomplished what he wanted. The work I wanna keep doing is to have much more thorough data collection, because we are still seeing so many unidentified aerial phenomena and we don't know what they are. And that's very frustrating.”

ML: “It's terrifying.”

KG: “It's terrifying from a national security perspective and just for these pilots to have to fly and do their jobs to not be safe and to not know what they're running up against. And I'm just very worried about technology that we're not aware of, particularly if it's from an adversary that's doing it for malign interests, whether it's Russia, China, Iran or others. Very important.”